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Thread: Absolute masterpieces by country - voting thread (closed)

          
   
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  1. #31
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGerald View Post
    I have seen (but cannot recall where) a list of operas by the number of performances each has. I hate to tie the concept of popularity to the term "masterpiece", because the latter may get some support from musical academia. But popularity cannot be ignored, either.
    Somewhere in old threads we made references to such lists of most performed operas - from time to time Opera America posts one, or I think we can get those numbers from Operabase.

    I think popularity indeed does have to do with masterpiece status because it is not for nothing that something becomes wildly popular, but it's not the only factor, obviously, and not a mandatory factor, otherwise poorly known (for various reasons, such as coming from a small country) works wouldn't have a shot at being called masterpieces.

    For example, I consider Bluebeard's Castle an astounding masterpiece, but it coming out of Hungary, it is not as wildly popular as the great Italian 19th century operas, etc. Still, strictly speaking from the musical and theatrical standpoints, Blueberd's Castle is close to perfection, so the fact that it isn't wildly popular shouldn't stop one from calling it a masterpiece.

    Also, some operas are just so difficult to stage that the public doesn't often get the opportunity to appreciate them, such as Les Troyens, which is so long and requires so many characters and such a numerous chorus that it is beyond the means of the overwhelming majority of opera companies. Therefore it is not easy for the public to ever see it (it's been mitigated by it being very well represented on DVD and blu-ray), which counts against its popularity. Still, if there is something that deserves the title of masterpiece, Les Troyens in my opinion clearly qualifies.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

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  3. #32
    Opera Lively News Coordinator Top Contributor Member MAuer's Avatar
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    My latest endorsements:

    From the USA:
    Porgy and Bess **

    From France
    Carmen **
    Manon **
    Faust*

    From Russia
    Eugene Onegin ***

    From Germany
    Der Rosenkavalier **

    From Italy
    Tosca **
    I Paggliaci*
    Anna Bolena **
    L'incoronazione di Poppea*

    From the Czech Republic
    The Bartered Bride*
    Rusalka **

  4. #33
    Opera Lively Moderator Top Contributor Member Amfortas's Avatar
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    I'll add a recommendation for Poppea.

  5. #34
    Opera Lively Staff Member Top Contributor Member Hoffmann's Avatar
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    I'm coming in late to this, so would only comment that when it comes to absolute masterpieces, I don't think there are that many.

    Anyway, the one that seems to be left out is Bellini's I Puritani.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffmann View Post
    I'm coming in late to this, so would only comment that when it comes to absolute masterpieces, I don't think there are that many.

    Anyway, the one that seems to be left out is Bellini's I Puritani.
    Luiz added Puritani. See amended list on page 2.

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  8. #36
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Latest list with MAuer's endorsements and Hoffmann's endorsemet of I Puritani (which indeed was already there but gets another asterisk) and Amfortas' Poppea which also collects another asterisk:

    From the USA:

    Porgy and Bess **
    The Rake's Progress *
    The Consul
    The Medium
    Amahl and the Night Visitors
    The Crucible
    Satyagraha
    The Death of Klinghoffer
    The Ghosts of Versailles
    Emmeline
    Little Women
    Doctor Atomic -

    From the United Kingdom:

    Dido and Aeneas *
    The Fairy Queen
    Peter Grimes **
    Death in Venice
    Written on Skin *
    The Tempest
    The Minotaur
    The Pirates of Penzance
    Giulio Cesare **
    Rodelinda *
    Ariodante
    Serse
    Hercules
    Theodora
    Billy Budd -
    Alcina *
    Rinaldo
    Orlando
    Tolomeo
    Deidamia

    From France

    Les Troyens *
    La Damnation de Faust
    Roméo et Juliette
    Dialogues des Carmélites *
    Pelléas et Mélisande *
    Les Contes d'Hoffmann *
    Carmen **
    Les Pêcheurs de Perles
    Les Indes Galantes *
    Atys *
    Manon **
    Guillaume Tell ***
    L'Enfant et les sortilèges
    Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
    Dardanus
    Médée (Chapentier's)
    Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
    Pheaton
    Benvenuto Cellini *
    Faust *
    Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
    Robert Le Diable -
    Dinorah
    La Favorite

    From Russia

    Eugene Onegin ***
    Boris Godunov **
    Kovanschina
    The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya *
    Prince Igor *
    Betrothal in a Monastery
    The Love for Three Oranges
    A Life for the Tsar
    The Fiery Angel
    The Golden Cockerel
    Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
    The Demon
    Iolanta *
    The Tale of the Tsar Saltan
    War and Peace **

    From Austria

    Lulu *
    Wozzeck * (what the hell, I endorse it too)
    Die Fledermaus
    Die lustige Witwe
    Paride ed Elena *
    Orfeo ed Euridice *
    Don Giovanni ***
    Così fan Tutte **
    Le Nozze di Figaro **
    Idomeneo
    La Clemenza di Tito **
    Die Entführung aus dem Serail *
    Die Zauberflöte **

    From Germany

    Boulevard Solitude
    Die Tote Stadt *
    Die Frau Ohne Schatten
    Der Rosenkavalier **
    Salome *
    Elektra *
    Die Soldaten
    Die Walküre **
    Das Rheingold **
    Gotterdämerung **
    Lohengrin ***
    Tristan und Isolde *
    Tannhäuser *
    Fidelio *
    Der Freischutz
    Euryanthe
    Siegfried **
    Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg **
    Parsifal *
    Orpheus (Telemann)
    Siroe (Hasse)
    Croesus

    From Italy

    La Traviata ***
    Rigoletto **
    Il Trovatore *
    Macbeth
    Don Carlo *
    Simon Boccanegra
    Otello (Verdi's) ***
    La Bohème
    Tosca **
    Il Tabarro
    Gianni Schichi
    Norma *
    I Capuleti e I Montecchi
    Lucia di Lammermoor *
    L'elisir d'amore
    Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *
    Mosè in Egito
    La Cenerentola
    Armida
    Ermione
    L'Italiana in Algeri
    Cavalleria Rusticana
    I Paggliaci *
    L'Orfeo *
    La Didonne
    Luce mie traditrice
    Madama Butterfly
    Falstaff
    Ernani *
    Roberto Devereux * (I endorse it too, it's my favorite of the trilogy due to melodic content)
    Anna Bolena **
    Maria Stuarda *
    I Puritani **
    Beatrice di Tenda
    L'incoronazione di Poppea
    Artaserse (Vinci)
    La Verità in cimento
    La Calisto
    Artemisia (Cavalli)
    L'Ormindo
    Griselda (Scarlatti)
    L'incoronazione di Poppea **

    From the Czech Republic

    The Bartered Bride *
    Rusalka **
    Jenufa
    Kat'a Kabanova
    From the House of the Dead
    The Cunning Little Vixen

    Others

    Bluebeard's Castle
    Le Grand Macabre
    King Roger
    L'Amour de Loin
    Ainadamar
    Il Guarany
    Maskarade
    El Retablo de Maese Pedro
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  9. #37
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    We're missing Annie's and Nat's inputs.
    I'm anticipating that Annie will endorse Simon Boccanegra and I'm hopeful that Nat will give to Written on Skin another asterisk but will certainly endorse Billy Budd, to my dismay, hehe.

    (PS to Annie - Any endorsement of Il Trovatore would have to specify that it is for the opera, not for a certain detestable version of it, LOL)
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  10. #38
    Senior Member Top Contributor Member Clayton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva) View Post
    We're missing Annie's and Nat's inputs...
    or input from any member is welcome and asked for...

    - - - Updated - - -

    (just in case your wondering whether you can contribute or not)

    - - - Updated - - -

    please do

    - - - Updated - - -

    go on, you know you want to

    - - - Updated - - -

    it's just for fun

    - - - Updated - - -

    unless you challenge Paride ed Elena

    - - - Updated - - -

    then there might be conflict

    - - - Updated - - -

    only joking

  11. #39
    Opera Lively Staff Member Top Contributor Member Hoffmann's Avatar
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    Ok, my endorsements:

    From the USA:


    From the United Kingdom:

    Giulio Cesare **

    Rinaldo

    From France

    Les Contes d'Hoffmann *
    Carmen **
    Guillaume Tell ***

    From Russia

    Eugene Onegin ***
    Boris Godunov **

    From Austria

    Orfeo ed Euridice *
    Don Giovanni ***
    Così fan Tutte **
    Le Nozze di Figaro **
    Idomeneo
    La Clemenza di Tito **
    Die Entführung aus dem Serail *
    Die Zauberflöte **

    From Germany

    Die Tote Stadt *
    Der Rosenkavalier **
    Salome *
    Elektra *
    Die Walküre **
    Das Rheingold **
    Gotterdämerung **
    Lohengrin ***
    Tristan und Isolde *
    Tannhäuser *
    Fidelio *
    Siegfried **
    Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg **
    Parsifal *

    From Italy

    La Traviata ***
    Don Carlo *
    Otello (Verdi's) ***
    La Bohème
    Tosca **
    Norma *
    I Capuleti e I Montecchi
    Lucia di Lammermoor *
    Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *
    Armida
    L'Italiana in Algeri
    Cavalleria Rusticana
    Madama Butterfly
    I Puritani **

    From the Czech Republic

    Jenufa


    Others

  12. #40
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    It would be good if people copied the entire list and then updated it with their endorsements, because if it's just a partial list then I'll have to go and update entry by entry and it's a bit time consuming. Would you re-do, Hoffmann? Especially with a large number of endorsements, it's hard for me to be comparing line by line, while if you copy and paste the entire list and go updating it, you'll know which ones you want to endorse without needing to compare line by line. Thanks.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  13. #41
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    OK, since Hoffmann didn't redo, I'll try to redo it. From now on folks, please don't use partial lists; copy and paste and then do your endorsements so that we always have the latest / updated list, thanks.

    I'll also present it differently - the ones that have been already endorsed/confirmed first, separated by a line from the ones that have been nominated but not endorsed yet.

    From the USA:

    Porgy and Bess **
    The Rake's Progress *
    --------
    The Consul
    The Medium
    Amahl and the Night Visitors
    The Crucible
    Satyagraha
    The Death of Klinghoffer
    The Ghosts of Versailles
    Emmeline
    Little Women
    Doctor Atomic -

    From the United Kingdom:

    Giulio Cesare ***
    Dido and Aeneas *
    Rodelinda *
    Peter Grimes **
    Written on Skin *
    Alcina *
    Rinaldo *
    -------------
    Death in Venice
    The Tempest
    The Minotaur
    The Pirates of Penzance
    The Fairy Queen
    Ariodante
    Serse
    Hercules
    Theodora
    Orlando
    Tolomeo
    Deidamia
    Billy Budd -

    From France

    Les Troyens *
    Dialogues des Carmélites *
    Pelléas et Mélisande *
    Les Contes d'Hoffmann **
    Carmen ***
    Les Indes Galantes *
    Atys *
    Manon **
    Guillaume Tell ****
    Benvenuto Cellini *
    Faust *
    --------------
    Les Pêcheurs de Perles
    La Damnation de Faust
    Roméo et Juliette
    L'Enfant et les sortilèges
    Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
    Dardanus
    Médée (Chapentier's)
    Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
    Pheaton
    Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
    Dinorah
    La Favorite
    Robert Le Diable -

    From Russia

    Eugene Onegin ****
    Boris Godunov ***
    The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya *
    Prince Igor *
    War and Peace **
    Iolanta *
    ------------
    Kovanschina
    Betrothal in a Monastery
    The Love for Three Oranges
    A Life for the Tsar
    The Fiery Angel
    The Golden Cockerel
    Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
    The Demon
    The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

    From Austria

    Lulu *
    Wozzeck *
    Paride ed Elena *
    Orfeo ed Euridice **
    Don Giovanni ****
    Così fan Tutte ***
    Le Nozze di Figaro ***
    Idomeneo *
    La Clemenza di Tito ***
    Die Entführung aus dem Serail **
    Die Zauberflöte ***
    ----------
    Die Fledermaus
    Die lustige Witwe

    From Germany

    Die Tote Stadt **
    Der Rosenkavalier ***
    Salome **
    Elektra **
    Die Walküre ***
    Das Rheingold ***
    Gotterdämerung ***
    Lohengrin ****
    Tristan und Isolde **
    Tannhäuser **
    Fidelio **
    Siegfried ***
    Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
    Parsifal **
    ------------
    Die Frau Ohne Schatten
    Die Soldaten
    Der Freischutz
    Euryanthe
    Boulevard Solitude
    Orpheus (Telemann)
    Siroe (Hasse)
    Croesus

    From Italy

    La Traviata ****
    Rigoletto **
    Il Trovatore *
    Don Carlo **
    Otello (Verdi's) ****
    La Bohème
    Tosca ***
    Norma **
    I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
    Lucia di Lammermoor *
    Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) **
    L'Italiana in Algeri *
    Cavalleria Rusticana *
    I Paggliaci *
    L'Orfeo *
    Madama Butterfly *
    Falstaff
    Ernani *
    Roberto Devereux *
    Anna Bolena **
    Maria Stuarda *
    I Puritani ***
    L'incoronazione di Poppea **
    Armida (Rossini's) *
    ------------
    Macbeth
    Simon Boccanegra
    Il Tabarro
    Gianni Schichi
    L'elisir d'amore
    Mosè in Egito
    La Cenerentola
    Ermione
    La Didonne
    Luce mie traditrice
    Beatrice di Tenda
    Artaserse (Vinci)
    La Verità in cimento
    La Calisto
    Artemisia (Cavalli)
    L'Ormindo
    Griselda (Scarlatti)

    From the Czech Republic

    The Bartered Bride *
    Rusalka **
    Jenufa *
    -------------
    Kat'a Kabanova
    From the House of the Dead
    The Cunning Little Vixen

    Others

    Bluebeard's Castle
    Le Grand Macabre
    King Roger
    L'Amour de Loin
    Ainadamar
    Il Guarany
    Maskarade
    El Retablo de Maese Pedro
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); April 29th, 2015 at 12:04 AM.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  14. #42
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    So far Italy leading with 24, Germany second with 14, Austria and France tied in third with 11, next Russia with 7, the United Kingdom with 6, the Czech Republic with 3, and the United States with 2.
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); April 29th, 2015 at 12:05 AM.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  15. #43
    Opera Lively Staff Member Top Contributor Member Hoffmann's Avatar
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    Sorry about that.

    I did my listing then went for a long walk and just now am returning online. I'll be more careful next time.

  16. #44
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffmann View Post
    Sorry about that.

    I did my listing then went for a long walk and just now am returning online. I'll be more careful next time.
    Oh, that's OK, I went ahead and did it because I was afraid if these two very different lists lingered, someone might go from yours and then things might become messy and hard to sort out.

    Let's plan on doing it from now on.

    Although, in my experience, every time I asked for something like that in the past, in other list threads, most people didn't follow it and whoever was organizing the thing still had to go editing, hehe.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  17. #45
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    I'm a bit disappointed with the USA. I'd hope that at least Satyagraha and The Death of Klinghoffer would be easily recognized as masterpieces. The Crucible and The Consul are no doubt masterpieces in my opinion, but they suffer from less exposure so people maybe won't vote for them for not having seen them.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

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