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Thread: Absolute masterpieces by country - voting thread (closed)

          
   
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  1. #61
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Nice, thanks, Nat.
    My beloved American operas are persistently not making the final list, so I'll have to mourn their fate.
    On the other hand, Nat did prop up some operas I love and nobody had seconded such as Bluebeard's Castle, Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, and L'Amour de Loin. With The Minotaur, it's nice to seem some contemporary operas making it. Also it is nice to see La Didone, a truly excellent opera, getting recognition. Nat's objection to The Death of Klinghoffer being more like an oratorio, well, the initial post of this thread did say that oratorios were fine to belong here, but anyway, she sees another objections too regarding the libretto and specifically says it's not a masterpiece so the opera collects a challenge with a minus sign. La Verità in Cimento gets to the list, and I don't know this one, so I need to patch this gap. Der Freischutz is very deserving of masterpiece status, I was surprised that it hadn't made it yet. Also, L'Enfant et les Sortilèges, and Médée, are both clearly masterpiece material in my opinion so I'm glad that they've made it. Ariodante is arguably my second favorite Handel so it's nice to see it go up. I also think Hercules is superb. Too bad Nat didn't endorse Theodora. I hope someone else does. The first operetta makes the list, Die Fledermaus (just in time for the Met's upcoming version!).

    It's curious that nobody endorsed Khovanshchina while Boris made it easily. I actually think the former is better than the latter although I grant to both the status of masterpieces.

    According to the rules, Robert le Diable is a goner. Since it has collected its second challenge and hasn't collected six endorsements, it won't belong to the final list. La Favorite could go permanently if someone else challenges it (it hasn't made the final list yet, in any case).
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); May 2nd, 2015 at 06:55 AM.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  2. #62
    Senior Member Top Contributor Member Clayton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soave_Fanciulla View Post
    ...
    La fanciulla del West Many critics see this as Puccini's best, and I agree.
    ...
    I still have not managed to listen to this opera. I need to rectify this. Maybe next time I visit the twentieth century.

  3. #63
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Updated list with confirmed masterpieces (so far) above the dotted lines; nominated but not confirmed below the lines:

    From the USA:

    Porgy and Bess ***
    The Rake's Progress **
    --------
    Amahl and the Night Visitors
    The Crucible
    Satyagraha
    Akhnaten
    The Ghosts of Versailles
    Emmeline
    Little Women
    Doctor Atomic -
    The Consul -
    The Medium -
    The Death of Klinghoffer -

    From the United Kingdom:

    Giulio Cesare ****
    Dido and Aeneas **
    Rodelinda **
    Peter Grimes ****
    Written on Skin **
    Alcina **
    Rinaldo **
    Billy Budd **
    Death in Venice*
    The Minotaur*
    The Fairy Queen*
    Ariodante*
    Serse*
    Hercules*
    -------------
    The Tempest
    The Pirates of Penzance
    Theodora
    Orlando
    Tolomeo
    Deidamia

    From France

    Les Troyens ***
    Dialogues des Carmélites **
    Pelléas et Mélisande **
    Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
    Carmen *****
    Les Indes Galantes **
    Atys *
    Manon ***
    Guillaume Tell ******
    Benvenuto Cellini *
    Faust **
    L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
    Médée (Chapentier's)*
    --------------
    Les Pêcheurs de Perles
    La Damnation de Faust
    Roméo et Juliette
    Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
    Dardanus
    Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
    Pheaton
    Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
    Dinorah
    La Favorite -
    Robert Le Diable * - -

    From Russia

    Eugene Onegin ******
    Boris Godunov *****
    The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
    Prince Igor ***
    War and Peace ***
    Iolanta **
    The Love for Three Oranges **
    Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
    The Demon*
    ------------
    Khovanshchina
    Betrothal in a Monastery
    A Life for the Tsar
    The Fiery Angel
    The Golden Cockerel
    The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

    From Austria

    Lulu *
    Wozzeck ***
    Paride ed Elena *
    Orfeo ed Euridice ***
    Don Giovanni ******
    Così fan Tutte ****
    Le Nozze di Figaro *****
    Idomeneo ***
    La Clemenza di Tito ****
    Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
    Die Zauberflöte *****
    Die Fledermaus*
    ----------
    Die lustige Witwe

    From Germany

    Die Tote Stadt ***
    Der Rosenkavalier ***
    Salome ***
    Elektra **
    Die Walküre ****
    Das Rheingold ****
    Gotterdämerung ****
    Lohengrin *****
    Tristan und Isolde ***
    Tannhäuser **
    Fidelio **
    Siegfried ***
    Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
    Parsifal **
    Der Freischutz*
    ------------
    Die Frau Ohne Schatten
    Die Soldaten
    Euryanthe
    Boulevard Solitude
    Orpheus (Telemann)
    Siroe (Hasse)
    Croesus

    From Italy

    La Traviata *****
    Rigoletto ****
    Il Trovatore **
    Don Carlo ****
    Otello (Verdi's) ******
    La Bohème *
    Tosca ****
    Norma **
    I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
    Lucia di Lammermoor **
    Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ***
    L'Italiana in Algeri *
    Cavalleria Rusticana *
    I Paggliaci *
    L'Orfeo **
    Madama Butterfly *
    Falstaff *
    Ernani **
    Roberto Devereux *
    Anna Bolena **
    Maria Stuarda *
    I Puritani ****
    L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
    Armida (Rossini's) *
    Macbeth **
    Simon Boccanegra **
    L'elisir d'amore*
    La Cenerentola*
    La Didone*
    Artaserse (Vinci)*
    La Verità in cimento*
    ------------
    La fanciulla del West
    Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
    Il Tabarro
    Gianni Schichi
    Mosè in Egito
    Ermione
    Luce mie traditrice
    Beatrice di Tenda
    La Calisto
    Artemisia (Cavalli)
    L'Ormindo
    Griselda (Scarlatti)

    From the Czech Republic

    The Bartered Bride **
    Rusalka ***
    Jenufa ***
    -------------
    Kat'a Kabanova
    From the House of the Dead
    The Cunning Little Vixen

    Others

    King Roger *
    L'Amour de Loin*
    Bluebeard's Castle*
    ---------
    Le Grand Macabre
    Ainadamar
    Il Guarany
    Maskarade
    El Retablo de Maese Pedro
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); May 2nd, 2015 at 06:46 AM.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  4. #64
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Only four operas so far have collected 7 endorsements - the initial nomination plus six endorsements:

    Otello (Verdi's)
    Don Giovanni
    Guillaume Tell
    Eugene Onegin

    -------

    The absent composer among these really widely recognized ones, is one Richard Wagner. His operas, while most of them have made the list, haven't gathered as many endorsements.

    It's also curious to see that Wozzeck has collected more endorsements than Lulu. Both are great, but Lulu being so better known, it's weird.

    Three I'll be sad if they don't make it:

    Satyagraha
    Ermione
    Die Frau Ohne Schatten

    I consider all three to be astounding masterpieces of the highest possible level.
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); May 2nd, 2015 at 06:50 AM.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  5. #65
    Opera Lively Moderator Top Contributor Member Soave_Fanciulla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
    I still have not managed to listen to this opera. I need to rectify this. Maybe next time I visit the twentieth century.
    Gotts gotta gotta do it.

    But actually you gotta watch it:

    Best tenor, stupid production


    Utterly brilliant Wild West production, tenor is a bit blank


    Reasonable all round production
    Natalie

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  7. #66
    Senior Member Top Contributor Member Clayton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva) View Post
    ...According to the rules, Robert le Diable is a goner...



    bye bye Bob

  8. #67
    Opera Lively Moderator Top Contributor Member Soave_Fanciulla's Avatar
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    Forgot to add one more:

    From the USA:

    Porgy and Bess ***
    The Rake's Progress **
    --------
    Amahl and the Night Visitors
    The Crucible
    Satyagraha
    Akhnaten
    The Ghosts of Versailles
    Emmeline
    Little Women
    Doctor Atomic -
    The Consul -
    The Medium -
    The Death of Klinghoffer -

    From the United Kingdom:

    Giulio Cesare ****
    Dido and Aeneas **
    Rodelinda **
    Peter Grimes ****
    Written on Skin **
    Alcina **
    Rinaldo **
    Billy Budd **
    Death in Venice*
    The Minotaur*
    The Fairy Queen*
    Ariodante*
    Serse*
    Hercules*
    -------------
    The Turn of the Screw
    The Tempest
    The Pirates of Penzance
    Theodora
    Orlando
    Tolomeo
    Deidamia

    From France

    Les Troyens ***
    Dialogues des Carmélites **
    Pelléas et Mélisande **
    Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
    Carmen *****
    Les Indes Galantes **
    Atys *
    Manon ***
    Guillaume Tell ******
    Benvenuto Cellini *
    Faust **
    L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
    Médée (Chapentier's)*
    --------------
    Les Pêcheurs de Perles
    La Damnation de Faust
    Roméo et Juliette
    Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
    Dardanus
    Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
    Pheaton
    Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
    Dinorah
    La Favorite -
    Robert Le Diable * - -

    From Russia

    Eugene Onegin ******
    Boris Godunov *****
    The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
    Prince Igor ***
    War and Peace ***
    Iolanta **
    The Love for Three Oranges **
    Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
    The Demon*
    ------------
    Khovanshchina
    Betrothal in a Monastery
    A Life for the Tsar
    The Fiery Angel
    The Golden Cockerel
    The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

    From Austria

    Lulu *
    Wozzeck ***
    Paride ed Elena *
    Orfeo ed Euridice ***
    Don Giovanni ******
    Così fan Tutte ****
    Le Nozze di Figaro *****
    Idomeneo ***
    La Clemenza di Tito ****
    Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
    Die Zauberflöte *****
    Die Fledermaus*
    ----------
    Die lustige Witwe

    From Germany

    Die Tote Stadt ***
    Der Rosenkavalier ***
    Salome ***
    Elektra **
    Die Walküre ****
    Das Rheingold ****
    Gotterdämerung ****
    Lohengrin *****
    Tristan und Isolde ***
    Tannhäuser **
    Fidelio **
    Siegfried ***
    Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
    Parsifal **
    Der Freischutz*
    ------------
    Die Frau Ohne Schatten
    Die Soldaten
    Euryanthe
    Boulevard Solitude
    Orpheus (Telemann)
    Siroe (Hasse)
    Croesus

    From Italy

    La Traviata *****
    Rigoletto ****
    Il Trovatore **
    Don Carlo ****
    Otello (Verdi's) ******
    La Bohème *
    Tosca ****
    Norma **
    I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
    Lucia di Lammermoor **
    Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ***
    L'Italiana in Algeri *
    Cavalleria Rusticana *
    I Paggliaci *
    L'Orfeo **
    Madama Butterfly *
    Falstaff *
    Ernani **
    Roberto Devereux *
    Anna Bolena **
    Maria Stuarda *
    I Puritani ****
    L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
    Armida (Rossini's) *
    Macbeth **
    Simon Boccanegra **
    L'elisir d'amore*
    La Cenerentola*
    La Didone*
    Artaserse (Vinci)*
    La Verità in cimento*
    Ermione *
    ------------
    La fanciulla del West
    Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
    Il Tabarro
    Gianni Schichi
    Mosè in Egito
    Luce mie traditrice
    Beatrice di Tenda
    La Calisto
    Artemisia (Cavalli)
    L'Ormindo
    Griselda (Scarlatti)

    From the Czech Republic

    The Bartered Bride **
    Rusalka ***
    Jenufa ***
    -------------
    Kat'a Kabanova
    From the House of the Dead
    The Cunning Little Vixen

    Others

    King Roger *
    L'Amour de Loin*
    Bluebeard's Castle*
    ---------
    Le Grand Macabre
    Ainadamar
    Il Guarany
    Maskarade
    El Retablo de Maese Pedro
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); May 2nd, 2015 at 12:43 PM. Reason: To include Ermione as per JohnGerald's endorsement
    Natalie

  9. #68
    Senior Member Top Contributor Member Clayton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soave_Fanciulla View Post
    Forgot to add one more...
    I thought Soave_Fanciulla would endorse Artemisia

    but maybe it wasn't as good for her as it was for me


  10. #69
    Opera Lively Moderator Top Contributor Member Soave_Fanciulla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
    I thought Soave_Fanciulla would endorse Artemisia

    but maybe it wasn't as good for her as it was for me

    Well, the trouble is I prefer Elena, but I'm not sure either of them is a masterpiece. And I've only listened to it once, so I'm not sure yet.
    Natalie

  11. #70
    Senior Member Top Contributor Member Clayton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soave_Fanciulla View Post
    Well, the trouble is I prefer Elena, but I'm not sure either of them is a masterpiece. And I've only listened to it once, so I'm not sure yet.
    I hear the Artemisia as one giant Pur ti miro. Almost like Cavalli remembered this blinding number he worked on at school and thought, yes I want an opera with all that romance. He topped it with a number of passages too and the opera is just beautiful melodies one after the other; not necessarily in arias, some in mini some in exchanges but they keep coming.

  12. #71
    Senior Member Veteran Member
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    Ermione should certainly be on the list.

  13. #72
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnGerald View Post
    Ermione should certainly be on the list.
    OK, so that's an endorsement, which props Ermione up to the "made it" part of the list. I'll just edit Soave's list since it's only one modification, instead of copying and posting the whole thing again.

    Italy is increasing its lead with 32 masterpieces. Germany second with 15. The UK has snatched 3rd place with 14.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  14. #73
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Question - how long should we keep going before locking up a final list? If I'm not mistaken all the regulars have spoken (which is an Opera Lively problem - we have a small number of regulars in spite of having a large number of members who post rarely, and another large number who never post and only lurk, not to forget that we have more than ten times more readers who don't bother starting membership as compared to the number of members).

    One problem is that the Top Lists forum was never included in those that deliver new posts to the Home page, so if people who are less familiar with site features don't use the What's New button they won't even see this thread so maybe we don't have more contributions because people are not even seeing the thread.

    I'll try to look up again how to include the new posts here on the Home page (I did this years ago when I first did the software set up, and barely remember how to change it).

    -------

    OK, got it. It was pretty easy, actually. Also went ahead and corrected a big blunder - the Announcements to Members forum now will also reflect on the Home page.
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); May 2nd, 2015 at 01:08 PM.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  15. #74
    Opera Lively Staff Member Top Contributor Member Hoffmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva) View Post
    Only four operas so far have collected 7 endorsements - the initial nomination plus six endorsements:

    Otello (Verdi's)
    Don Giovanni
    Guillaume Tell
    Eugene Onegin

    -------

    The absent composer among these really widely recognized ones, is one Richard Wagner. His operas, while most of them have made the list, haven't gathered as many endorsements.

    It's also curious to see that Wozzeck has collected more endorsements than Lulu. Both are great, but Lulu being so better known, it's weird.

    Three I'll be sad if they don't make it:

    Satyagraha
    Ermione
    Die Frau Ohne Schatten

    I consider all three to be astounding masterpieces of the highest possible level.

    I have to admit I don't know either Frau ohne Schatten or Satyagraha at all, so can't endorse either. I don't know Ermione very well - I enjoy it, but don't like it nearly as well as Semiramide or La Donna del Lago , neither of which had much hope of succeeding on the list.

    Rossini's opera seria can't seem to find much love anywhere and, if anything, while suffering from weaker librettos than his comedies, are musically far more stunning.

  16. #75
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffmann View Post
    Rossini's opera seria can't seem to find much love anywhere and, if anything, while suffering from weaker librettos than his comedies, are musically far more stunning.
    Very true. Rossini's best music is in his stunning serious operas, and many of them would qualify as masterpieces for me. I didn't quote too many in my initial list, not to be too heavy in terms of one composer and one genre. By the way, one of his most neglected operas is his Otello which gets smothered by the more famous version by Verdi but is very much worthy of consideration.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

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