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Thread: What opera have you been listening to, lately?

          
   
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  1. #1411
    Opera Lively Coordinator - Donor Member Top Contributor Member tyroneslothrop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deNoget View Post
    I just realized this Muette recording was just released last week. Was listening on Spotify.
    I swear by Spotify and the Naxos Music Library (clicky).
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  2. #1412
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    I've been interested in opera in french recently.
    Nice. I have had what I call my French project for a while - I haven't had the time to complete it, though - of listening to a number of French operas (or operas in French). I have acquired already all that are on this list I posted [here] but I still need to listen to some of those - the project hasn't moved much for a while although I got to a couple of the ones still in red).

    Anyway once I get to the last one, I may continue to expand. Obviously I missed Fauré's Pénélope in that list.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  3. #1413
    Opera Lively Coordinator - Donor Member Top Contributor Member tyroneslothrop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva) View Post
    Obviously I missed Fauré's Pénélope in that list.
    I listened to Fauré last evening, following along with this vocal score: [clicky] Unfortunately, it's not in English... and I really need English

    I will better judge the overall opera when I can figure out what is going on. But from a musical perspective only, it definitely is French. and Fauré.
    “The hand of Providence creeps among the stars, giving Slothrop the finger.”
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  5. #1414
    Member Recent member deNoget's Avatar
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    That is quite a list! I am also a man of listening lists; I often find myself putting them down for a while and revisiting them a couple of years later.

    I find myself interested right now in nineteenth/early twentieth century French opera. I have always found it strange that history has bequeathed us this Italian/German dichotomy of Romantic opera: Verdi & Puccini v. Wagner & Strauss. Now these four composers clearly deserve their place in the repertoire, but wouldn't it make sense for a duo of French composers to achieve this level of renown?

  6. #1415
    Opera Lively Coordinator - Donor Member Top Contributor Member tyroneslothrop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deNoget View Post
    I have always found it strange that history has bequeathed us this Italian/German dichotomy of Romantic opera: Verdi & Puccini v. Wagner & Strauss. Now these four composers clearly deserve their place in the repertoire, but wouldn't it make sense for a duo of French composers to achieve this level of renown?
    Yes, Berlioz and Debussy, simply don't have the same ring, and the fact that Debussy could only produce one work--well, that was very Beethoven-like, wasn't it, and frankly, it really is reminiscent of JD Salinger or Harper Lee, two other artist who were terrified that their next work would be a failure to the point of becoming mute.

    It's too bad that Rossini was so silent in his France years, as he spent more of his life in France than in Italy, so we could have counted him as an honorary Frenchman, like Meyerbeer.
    “The hand of Providence creeps among the stars, giving Slothrop the finger.”
    ― Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow

  7. #1416
    Opera Lively Moderator Top Contributor Member Amfortas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyroneslothrop View Post
    Yes, Berlioz and Debussy, simply don't have the same ring, and the fact that Debussy could only produce one work--well, that was very Beethoven-like, wasn't it, and frankly, it really is reminiscent of JD Salinger or Harper Lee, two other artist who were terrified that their next work would be a failure to the point of becoming mute.
    Might have to go with Berlioz and Massenet, then--though that's not entirely satisfying either.

  8. #1417
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyroneslothrop View Post
    Yes, Berlioz and Debussy, simply don't have the same ring
    Ahem, I disagree. Berlioz in my opinion is as good an opera composer as any, maybe with the exception of Mozart, Wagner, and Verdi - but not too far behind. His production was small but all of high quality. And deNoget, there are French composers who have significant renown - pieces by Gounod and Massenet for example are well anchored in the standard repertoire, and if we count Offenbach among the French (I would), then he's another one; Berlioz is of the highest level of quality, and going back to the Baroque, we get Rameau, Gluck, and Lully. Not to forget Bizet, who composed arguably one of the top five most popular operas of all time. Carmen, Faust, Werther, Manon, Thaïs, The Tales of Hoffman, Les Troyens, etc., are very famous operas and are side by side with the very top of the German/Austrian and Italian operas. Then you get also some isolated masterpieces like P&M, Lakmé, Le Rossignol, L'Enfant et les Sortilèges, etc., so, I don't see the French that much behind, actually.

    And Tyrone, Rossini did compose Guillaume Tell, Le Comte Ory...
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); August 6th, 2013 at 11:23 AM.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  9. #1418
    Opera Lively Moderator Top Contributor Member Soave_Fanciulla's Avatar
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    This is really the most gorgeous Romeo et Juliette, two perfect leads and wonderful singing.



    I REALLY prefer the five act version of Don Carlo - but starting in the middle of the story means that Willy Decker can focus us almost entirely on the dysfunctional father-son relationship rather than themes oflove vs duty.



    A rather sweet if a little clunky production of Midsummer Night's Dream; Puck steals the show:



    This production of Elena from Aix must come out on DVD. Cavalli is a wonderful opera composer, and I love the mix of serious and buffo in his works. And I have a girl crush on Xavier Barna-Sabadus in a skirt, which I think is very 17th century of me.



    Spotify listening:

    Natalie

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  11. #1419
    Opera Lively Coordinator - Donor Member Top Contributor Member tyroneslothrop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva) View Post
    Ahem, I disagree. Berlioz in my opinion is as good an opera composer as any, maybe with the exception of Mozart, Wagner, and Verdi - but not too far behind. His production was small but all of high quality. And deNoget, there are French composers who have significant renown - pieces by Gounod and Massenet for example are well anchored in the standard repertoire, and if we count Offenbach among the French (I would), then he's another one; Berlioz is of the highest level of quality, and going back to the Baroque, we get Rameau, Gluck, and Lully. Not to forget Bizet, who composed arguably one of the top five most popular operas of all time. Carmen, Faust, Werther, Manon, Thaïs, The Tales of Hoffman, Les Troyens, etc., are very famous operas and are side by side with the very top of the German/Austrian and Italian operas. Then you get also some isolated masterpieces like P&M, Lakmé, Le Rossignol, L'Enfant et les Sortilèges, etc., so, I don't see the French that much behind, actually.

    And Tyrone, Rossini did compose Guillaume Tell, Le Comte Ory...
    Ok, far be it for me to argue with a die-hard Berlioz fan but neither Massenet or Gounod can be compared with Wagner and Verdi... especially Wagner. Many French works that showed good workmanship, but with the exception of your Les Troyen, and Carmen and P&M, IMO there was nothing the caliber of the Ring, Parsifal or Don Carlo (although the latter might be classed as opera for the French if not a French opera). Rossini produced a few works in France, but mostly fell mute during those years (I suppose he lived off the residuals from his 20 earlier works).
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); August 6th, 2013 at 11:23 AM.
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  12. #1420
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyroneslothrop View Post
    Ok, far be it for me to argue with a die-hard Berlioz fan but neither Massenet or Gounod can be compared with Wagner and Verdi... especially Wagner. Many French works that showed good workmanship, but with the exception of your Les Troyen, and Carmen and P&M, IMO there was nothing the caliber of the Ring, Parsifal or Don Carlo (although the latter might be classed as opera for the French if not a French opera). Rossini produced a few works in France, but mostly fell mute during those years (I suppose he lived off the residuals from his 20 earlier works).
    My point exactly; Les Troyens, Carmen, and P&M *are* among the very best of all time. There are just too many so called "exceptions" in the French repertoire to dismiss the French like you all are doing. So, what you are all saying is, "hm, you know, there are these incredibly good French operas that match the best ones composed by the Germans/Austrians and the Italians; then there is a second tier (Massenet, Gounod, Offenbach, Lully, Gluck, Rameau) that are up there with the second tier of Germans/Austrians/Italians; yeah, that proves that the French suck!"

    Makes no sense to me.

    I'm not saying that the French production matches exactly the two top traditions (it is hard to argue that the Italians and the Germans/Austrians have produced the best operatic bodies in history). I'm just saying it doesn't lag that far behind, and I believe it to be the third best tradition, and not by much (next in hot pursuit we have the Eastern Europeans in the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Russia).
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

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  14. #1421
    Member Recent member deNoget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva) View Post
    My point exactly; Les Troyens, Carmen, and P&M *are* among the very best of all time. There are just too many so called "exceptions" in the French repertoire to dismiss the French like you all are doing. So, what you are all saying is, "hm, you know, there are these incredibly good French operas that match the best ones composed by the Germans/Austrians and the Italians; then there is a second tier (Massenet, Gounod, Offenbach, Lully, Gluck, Rameau) that are up there with the second tier of Germans/Austrians/Italians; yeah, that proves that the French suck!"
    You've summed up my general understanding of the way the opera community seems to treat the French opera repertoire. In some ways, I wonder if it is has something to do with the compelling nature of the genius composer of many operas. You can chart a composer's progress through different works, and compare, make lists, argue greatness. To say that there are three operatic masterpieces from France in the second half of the 19th century can easily be denigrated by those who want to because Wagner and Verdi each wrote more masterpieces single handedly. So did Puccini and Strauss for that matter.

    I have a feeling that there are composers like this in France in the Romantic era, but their operas are not performed either at all, or regularly. There are a lot of reasons why this is true, some of which have nothing to do with artistic quality of the works we barely know. We should not be content with only three French masterpieces.

  15. #1422
    Member Recent member deNoget's Avatar
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    Based on book reviews like this one [click], my candidates would be Meyerbeer and Massenet. Now, I haven't listened to many of their works, so you can take my thought with a grain of salt. But my gut feeling is that are missing something in our current standard repertoire.

  16. #1423
    Opera Lively Staff Member Top Contributor Member Hoffmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva) View Post
    My point exactly; Les Troyens, Carmen, and P&M *are* among the very best of all time. There are just too many so called "exceptions" in the French repertoire to dismiss the French like you all are doing. So, what you are all saying is, "hm, you know, there are these incredibly good French operas that match the best ones composed by the Germans/Austrians and the Italians; then there is a second tier (Massenet, Gounod, Offenbach, Lully, Gluck, Rameau) that are up there with the second tier of Germans/Austrians/Italians; yeah, that proves that the French suck!"

    Makes no sense to me.

    I'm not saying that the French production matches exactly the two top traditions (it is hard to argue that the Italians and the Germans/Austrians have produced the best operatic bodies in history). I'm just saying it doesn't lag that far behind, and I believe it to be the third best tradition, and not by much (next in hot pursuit we have the Eastern Europeans in the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Russia).
    I have one question here: Wasn't Gluck German (Christoph Willibald Gluck)? I understand that he lived in Paris for a while and composed a couple of operas in French, but he didn't move to Paris until he was nearly 60! So, I think he belongs to the Germans and not on your list of top French opera composers.

  17. #1424
    Opera Lively Site Owner / Administrator / Chief Editor Top Contributor Member Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffmann View Post
    I have one question here: Wasn't Gluck German (Christoph Willibald Gluck)? I understand that he lived in Paris for a while and composed a couple of operas in French, but he didn't move to Paris until he was nearly 60! So, I think he belongs to the Germans and not on your list of top French opera composers.
    Well, he did write several operas in French (15, not a couple), and many of those are among his major ones, with a couple of exceptions (his Italian language ones contain a couple of his best works but most of the really good ones are in French, not to forget that he redid those major Italian hits in French as well). Yes, I know, he was German (Bavarian) but so were Meyerbeer and Offenbach, and Lully was born in Italy, and who doesn't list these three among the French?

    I kind of list composers as belonging or not to a national body of works by looking at their main operas and for what stages/languages they were composed. So, it's hard to list Handel as a German composer, don't you agree? The vast majority of his major operatic works is made of pieces in Italian, composed in Italy, and with Italian librettists, then he moved to England and switched to English for his oratorios. Even Mozart, he was vastly influenced by the Italianate style and traveled to Italy to learn the ropes, and his very best operas are in Italian. But I do give Mozart to the Austrians because he also composed significant pieces in German, and his musical influences weren't only Italian. But, you know, operas also take librettists, and when you think that the three best Mozart operas were done in the Italianate style, with a librettist from Italy (da Ponte), then it's a bit hard to call these, Austrian operas.

    Similarly, would you call The Rake's Progress a Russian opera? No, it's an American opera regardless of his place of birth; Stravinsky used some American musical language in it, set to music a libretto in English, was over here and was already naturalized American when he composed it, so, it's an American piece. Was Menotti an Italian composer? Sure, he was born in Italy and did start composing operas in Italian, but virtually all his major works were composed in English, in America, so I list these as American operas as well.

    In my opinion, it makes more sense to think of it this way. Composers were quite mobile throughout history, and people moved to different European courts as work became available (or, later, some even moved here to the US), and would almost always try to adapt to that country's traditions and musical language in order to be successful, so it makes more sense to list them according to where they were doing their trade (since this did influenced heavily the kind of musical language they were composing in), as opposed to a mere place of birth.

    All these foreign born composers, when they did their pieces in French, used a *very* French style, so, I don't get too caught up with the place of birth. If you look at Gluck's major works Iphigénie en Aulide, Iphigénie en Tauride, Armide, Alceste (the French one), Orphée et Euridice (the French one), and Echo et Narcisse, it's all in French. So I think of these as French operas when considering the French operatic body. He also did some minor ones in French as well - La Fausse Esclave, L'ile de Merlin, Le Diable à Quatre, Cythère Assiégée, L'arbre enchantée, L'ivrogne corrigé, Le Cadi Dupé, La rencontre imprévue, and La Fête d'Apollo.

    How can you list Gluck with the German operatic body? Of his 49 operas (counting remakes), only one was in German, and even that one was reworked from his best and most famous one which was originally in French, then renamed in translation Iphigenie auf Tauris.

    If we were to consider Gluck as not belonging to French opera, then we'd have to list him as Italian, not German, since most of his operas were in Italian, with Metastasio and other Italians as librettists - but like I said, not his major successes, which were almost all in French.

    By the way, the scholarly book quoted by deNoget above does list Gluck as French, so at the very least I'm not alone in this.
    Last edited by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva); August 6th, 2013 at 05:23 PM.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

  18. #1425
    Opera Lively Staff Member Top Contributor Member Hoffmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva) View Post
    Well, he did write several operas in French (15, not a couple), and many of those are among his major ones, with a couple of exceptions (his Italian language ones contain a couple of his best works but most of the really good ones are in French, not to forget that he redid those major Italian hits in French as well). Yes, I know, he was German (Bavarian) but so were Meyerbeer and Offenbach, and Lully was born in Italy, and who doesn't list these three among the French?

    I kind of list composers as belonging or not to a national body of works by looking at their main operas and for what stages/languages they were composed. So, it's hard to list Handel as a German composer, don't you agree? The vast majority of his major operatic works is made of pieces in Italian, composed in Italy, and with Italian librettists, then he moved to England and switched to English for his oratorios. Even Mozart, he was vastly influenced by the Italianate style and traveled to Italy to learn the ropes, and his very best operas are in Italian. But I do give Mozart to the Austrians because he also composed significant pieces in German, and his musical influences weren't only Italian. But, you know, operas also take librettists, and when you think that the three best Mozart operas were done in the Italianate style, with a librettist from Italy (da Ponte), then it's a bit hard to call these, Austrian operas.

    Similarly, would you call The Rake's Progress a Russian opera? No, it's an American opera regardless of his place of birth; Stravinsky used some American musical language in it, set to music a libretto in English, was over here and was already naturalized American when he composed it, so, it's an American piece. Was Menotti an Italian composer? Sure, he was born in Italy and did start composing operas in Italian, but virtually all his major works were composed in English, in America, so I list these as American operas as well.

    In my opinion, it makes more sense to think of it this way. Composers were quite mobile throughout history, and people moved to different European courts as work became available (or, later, some even moved here to the US), and would almost always try to adapt to that country's traditions and musical language in order to be successful, so it makes more sense to list them according to where they were doing their trade (since this did influenced heavily the kind of musical language they were composing in), as opposed to a mere place of birth.

    All these foreign born composers, when they did their pieces in French, used a *very* French style, so, I don't get too caught up with the place of birth. If you look at Gluck's major works Iphigénie en Aulide, Iphigénie en Tauride, Armide, Alceste (the French one), Orphée et Euridice (the French one), and Echo et Narcisse, it's all in French. So I think of these as French operas when considering the French operatic body. He also did some minor ones in French as well - La Fausse Esclave, L'ile de Merlin, Le Diable à Quatre, Cythère Assiégée, L'arbre enchantée, L'ivrogne corrigé, Le Cadi Dupé, La rencontre imprévue, and La Fête d'Apollo.

    How can you list Gluck with the German operatic body? Of his 49 operas (counting remakes), only one was in German, and even that one was reworked from his best and most famous one which was originally in French, then renamed in translation Iphigenie auf Tauris.

    If we were to consider Gluck as not belonging to French opera, then we'd have to list him as Italian, not German, since most of his operas were in Italian, with Metastasio and other Italians as librettists - but like I said, not his major successes, which were almost all in French.

    By the way, the scholarly book quoted by deNoget above does list Gluck as French, so at the very least I'm not alone in this.
    I knew I was going to get myself in trouble with that posting, but decided that since Gluck didn't move to Paris until he was 60, it begged the question.

    I certainly know and understand the point - and agree with your points about Meyerbeer (who, I believe, even changed his name) and Handel, who did almost all of his composing in England. Mozart, Italian? Mmm, No. You can try and make that case, but I, for one, will never buy it. (I've been dying to use that smilie..).

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