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View Full Version : Recording companies versus Youtube uploaders - your opinion



Soave_Fanciulla
September 1st, 2012, 08:14 PM
[Link to video deleted by Admin - video no longer available]

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
September 1st, 2012, 09:27 PM
I bellieve that YouTube short video clips - 3 to 10 minutes or so - are a valid educational service for the public and a diffusion tool for artists and recording companies. Fighting off these clips as copyright violations is downright stupid. Of course, if a quality fragment of a recording is posted on YouTube, it can only help the recording company's bottom line since viewers would be able to test drive the product and might be motivated to purchase the whole thing. A recording on CD, DVD, or blu-ray, is much more convenient and has much better quality than a clip on YouTube, so, I can't see how the existence of these short clips would jeopardize the market for the companies. Much the opposite, I see it as free publicity, and that's how they should see it as well. The concept is similar to the audio samples of CD tracks that we can find on the website of many CD vendors.

Now, the issue of whole operas on YouTube is very different. I believe we should divide considerations about it in four radically different ways, depending on the availability of the material.

One case, is that of old clips from TV broadcasts or amateur video, etc., of performances that have virtually zero chance of ever making it to the mainstream market of commercial CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays. The diffusion of these images on YouTube can't harm anybody. Say, some black-and-white grainy image of a TV broadcast of an obscure opera by an Italian channel, containing some old production out of a regional opera house in Italy, will never see the light of day as a viable commercial piece; so, diffusing it on YouTube can only have educational value and give access to the piece to audiences that would otherwise have no opportunity to see it. This is especially true of operas that are not represented in the catalog of the commercial companies, and wouldn't otherwise be available (therefore, don't fall into category 3 below).

Another case, is that of viable more recent productions filmed with good quality that haven't been able to find a way to be released commercially. This is more controversial but still falls most of the time under the educational value I'm talking about - think, for example, of the case of world premieres of contemporary operas that may not be easily staged again and won't have enough of a public for a commercial release. Without YouTube, these works would remain virtually unavailable, outside of the few hundred people who live at driving distance from the theater and were able to attend the performance. It is in the composer's best interest to have it out there on YouTube, to make his/her work known and develop a following - maybe another opera by the same composer will then have more of a following and will be revived more often or will make it to a commercial product. Still, in certain cases one might argue that having these operas complete on YouTube might actually hinder the chances of a viable commercial product since people might be content with watching it on YouTube, thus decreasing the pool of people eventually interested in buying a future release of the opera.

The third scenario is that of operas that are relatively obscure and are represented commercially by only one or a small number of products. If another production of the same opera gets diffused on YouTube, even if that production is not scheduled for commercial release, people might watch it to get to know the opera, and then think - "OK, I got this one under my belt already" - and then not feel compelled to buy the available commercial product. This is potentially detrimental in the same way I'll explain next. Well, this doesn't really apply to the likes of Le Nozze di Figaro, of course. I can't imagine that the market for a good commercial version of Le Nozze would be hurt by the presence of some obscure version of the same opera on YouTube. And another complicator is that if the owners of the copyright of the YouTube-diffused version don't mind, the people who own the rights to the available commercial version wouldn't be able to fight it off anyway. So, while we may talk about what good or bad this does to the market, it's a moot point.

Now, the fourth scenario is that of complete opera performances on YouTube that also exist as a commercial product. This, I can't support at all, in no circumstance. It's a gross violation of copyrights, and directly impacts on the profits that might be achieved by selling the product to prospective buyers, thus making of operatic releases a less good deal for the recording companies, which might migrate into more profitable niches, dumping the operatic field all together or only releasing those products with a certain public (say, the productions with the likes of Jonas Kaufmann, Anna Netrebko, etc), limiting the market for anything less profitable. Do we want to limit the choice of operatic releases by supporting these copyright violations? No, it is not in our interest as opera lovers, and even more importantly, it is not in the interest of the artists who keep our beloved art form alive. Sure, people will feel tempted to get free stuff from the Internet, but they'll be killing the golden egg goose. We suffer enough competition from mindless pop music and idiotic blockbuster films in terms of what gets released on CD, DVD and blu-ray. We need to strengthen the market for opera, not kill it by stealing these images from their rightful owners. Producing these recordings costs money, is a big investment for the companies, and if we love opera, we want the orchestra, the conductor, the stage director, the singers, etc., and yes, the executives and staff from the recording companies, to get paid for their work. This is why I don't support bootleg makers, and can't support the diffusion on YouTube of complete opera performances that otherwise exist on sale on commercial-grade products.

So, it depends on the nature and degree of the copyright violation. A short clip of something available out there? Darn, this is free publicity, let it stand, don't be stupid, recording companies! Old stuff that won't be seen otherwise? By all means, keep it there! New stuff that can't find its way to a commercial product? Keep it there too! Now, direct competition with a commercial product? Probably not a good thing, but hard to fight off anyway. But then, straight theft of the complete images and sounds of an existing commercial product? Well, prosecute the bastards who uploaded it to the full extent of the law so that they learn to respect the artists and the hardworking folks who make these products available to be purchased by the opera-loving public, so that the market is kept alive and is seen by the recording companies as still a good investment to make.

Amfortas
September 1st, 2012, 09:37 PM
I know only one thing for sure.

I want more Antonella Bandelli!

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
September 1st, 2012, 09:56 PM
I know only one thing for sure.

I want more Antonella Bandelli!

Buy this, and this.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Klt6n3lnL._SL500_AA300_.jpghttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UCDcft9vL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Then, recording companies might realize that she got a market, and release more of her. That's my point.

HarpsichordConcerto
September 2nd, 2012, 12:48 AM
Almaviva summarised it all. I agree with his points.

I use Youtbe to mainly test drive the production before I decide whther to buy the recorded medium or not. That is the biggest advantage of Youtube to me. Even if the whole piece was avaiable on Youtube, not discounting copyright issues, I would still prefer to own a hardcopy of the piece anyway. Other than that, I might have clips playing in the background if I am away from my collection. So Youtube is a fantastic way to learn and sample about pieces and or segments of music.

Soave_Fanciulla
September 2nd, 2012, 04:42 AM
I think Alma to a large extent is right, but there are a few exceptions.

I have watched whole operas on YouTube (for example Peter Grimes with Ventris) and then bought the DVD. If I hadn't seen it on Youtube I would never have bought it as I thought I had a good version, but it was so excellent and I wanted it in decent quality. Another example is the ROH Tosca.

Same with the Glyndebourne L'enfant et les Sortileges. I've seen it, and now I want to buy it.

So in my view even full length versions CAN create an audience, but of course there are plenty who would just watch it and leave it at that.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
September 2nd, 2012, 05:44 AM
Glyndebourne L'Enfant wasn't on YouTube. They decided to stream it themselves for two weeks, that's different. Obviously they wanted to both diffuse their work and foster a market for it when (if) it comes out on DVD, by increasing the word-of-mouth that it is excellent. They did it by just letting it there for two weeks, so, even though some people may see it and not buy it later, more people will likely buy it thanks to word of mouth from those who saw it in this 2-week period. Smart strategy.

I'd say that statistically speaking your take is likely to be a lot less frequent than the take of people who won't buy a product because they can see it for free on YouTube (that's human nature, much more likely to be the rule). So it's not that these productions you quoted are exceptions. *You* are the exception. Therefore, my points remain valid.

HarpsichordConcerto
September 2nd, 2012, 06:54 AM
If one is very pasionate about the opera or at least that particular production, and assuming one has some spare cash, then it is likely they would prefer to buy the product after viewing in part on in entirety on Youtube.

Soave_Fanciulla
September 2nd, 2012, 07:41 AM
I don't believe that anyone but the recording companies really make money from the DVDs - conductors and singers etc make their income from the fees for the live performances.

One person recital cds are or course another matter.

MAuer
September 2nd, 2012, 02:37 PM
As a rule, I'm with Alma and HarpsicordConcerto. I've often used YouTube clips to listen to singers with whom I'm unfamiliar, or to hear favorite singers performing excerpts from operas (when I don't have commercial recordings of these operas with them). I loved the clips from the Vienna State Opera production of Anna Bolena with La Bellissima and Elina Garanća -- and purchased the DVD as soon as it became available.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
September 2nd, 2012, 02:44 PM
I don't believe that anyone but the recording companies really make money from the DVDs - conductors and singers etc make their income from the fees for the live performances.

One person recital cds are or course another matter.

True, but anyway, the recording companies employ thousands of people and need to pay them, have operational costs, investments, and need a return on their investments so that they continue to support the operatic niche-market.

Besides, I've just learned from a search on opera singers income that major houses like the Met often top up singers fees with money the recording companies give them when there is a planned DVD. So at least they make some money upfront, even if they don't participate in the profits of subsequent DVD sales.

Soave_Fanciulla
September 2nd, 2012, 07:07 PM
So the discussion is really about recording companies's profits rather than depriving


the orchestra, the conductor, the stage director, the singers

of much needed income.

So for instance if I see a production of a commercial DVD on YouTube (say the recent Bayreuth Lohengrin) and decide that I'm not going to buy it because it's daft (and I wasn't considering spending my hard earned money on it anyway because I knew it was going to be daft), but fall in love with the tenor and proceed to buy three CDs and one DVD with him in it, how is that depriving the record companies of their profits?

I know you say I am an exception but I can't be the only one (Nat panics that she is the only one with OCDVDCS)

(Obsessive Compulsive DVD Collecting Syndrome)

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
September 2nd, 2012, 07:44 PM
So the discussion is really about recording companies's profits rather than depriving of much needed income.

What is wrong with the companies having profits? That's capitalism, it's what moves the world. We need them as much as they need us. Would you like all the main companies to ditch the operatic market all together and keep releasing DVDs with Andrea Bocelli, Katherine Jenkins, Paul Potts, and the likes of Justin Bieber, Mariah Carey, Britney Spears, etc?

We need to keep the companies that do classical music and opera in business.

Well, you can't be the only exception, but do you seriously think that having a complete video of an existing commercial product available for free on YouTube as a rule helps the company? Of course it doesn't. Many more will go for the free ride and ditch the purchase of the commercial product, as compared to the few who will do what you do.

Amfortas
September 2nd, 2012, 08:14 PM
Well, you can't be the only exception, but do you seriously think that having a complete video of an existing commercial product available for free on YouTube as a rule helps the company? Of course it doesn't. Many more will go for the free ride and ditch the purchase of the commercial product, as compared to the few who will do what you do.

I wonder, though. We're not talking about fourteen year olds listening to their favorite pop songs. I would think the person cultured and devoted enough to watch an entire opera on YouTube might be a good deal more likely (and financially able) to purchase the DVD.

I don't have any statistics on this, though, so take it as pure speculation.

Ann Lander (sospiro)
September 2nd, 2012, 08:36 PM
So for instance if I see a production of a commercial DVD on YouTube (say the recent Bayreuth Lohengrin) and decide that I'm not going to buy it because it's daft (and I wasn't considering spending my hard earned money on it anyway because I knew it was going to be daft), but fall in love with the tenor and proceed to buy three CDs and one DVD with him in it, how is that depriving the record companies of their profits?

I know you say I am an exception but I can't be the only one (Nat panics that she is the only one with OCDVDCS)

(Obsessive Compulsive DVD Collecting Syndrome)

You're not the only one.

In my opinion, most opera lovers don't want to watch full length opera on YouTubes instead of on Blu-ray or DVD. We want good quality sound and picture & we don't get that on YouTube.

My internet speed is poor so I can never watch a whole opera on YouTube anyway. But I've lost count of the times I've watched a clip & then bought the DVD.

Also, within the last couple of years, ROH performances of Don Carlo, Simon Boccanegra & Tosca have been broadcast on terrestrial TV in the UK. I've watched them on TV & recorded them, I've watched them while they were briefly on YouTube and have still bought/will still buy the DVD.

Amfortas
September 2nd, 2012, 08:42 PM
It's possible, though, that our small, tight-knit group here is an anomalous, self-selected sampling of the opera-loving community (to say nothing of the opera-as-a-casual-interest community). Maybe other people aren't amassing DVD collections so compulsively.

And yes, I've just contradicted my previous post. So sue me.

HarpsichordConcerto
September 2nd, 2012, 08:48 PM
I know you say I am an exception but I can't be the only one (Nat panics that she is the only one with OCDVDCS)

(Obsessive Compulsive DVD Collecting Syndrome)

Me too, me too! I get the shhhaakkesss when I don't buy a DVD/Blu-ray every now and then. So I HAVE to buy some.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
September 2nd, 2012, 09:44 PM
Well, maybe sospiro and Nat and Amfortas do have a point. I'm another one with little patience for full operas on YouTube... but I've seen them, especially the ones with higher definition. I have a speedy connection and the opera plays with no freezes. So, yes, sometimes I watch something on YouTube. But it is rather rare, and doesn't really stop me from buying commercial products.

OK, so, maybe, after all, given the fact that opera lovers are usually not teenagers, YouTube doesn't detrimentally impact on the market for commercial products.

Or else, maybe when it does, it's offset by when it helps (e.g., opera lover watches clip, likes it, buys the full product).

Let's start a poll about it. I'll start it.

Soave_Fanciulla
September 2nd, 2012, 10:00 PM
-
What is wrong with the companies having profits? That's capitalism, it's what moves the world. We need them as much as they need us. Would you like all the main companies to ditch the operatic market all together and keep releasing DVDs with Andrea Bocelli, Katherine Jenkins, Paul Potts, and the likes of Justin Bieber, Mariah Carey, Britney Spears, etc?

We need to keep the companies that do classical music and opera in business.


Alma, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong, just that the discussion is about that, rather than about performers' rights. And yes, I want to keep them in business as much as anyone else.

I have to say that the thought of depriving individual performers of their remuneration would be a much more potent argument for me. But I'm not feeling any guilt about recording companies as I reckon I'm making a hefty contribution to their profits all on my own every month. If I watch the odd commercial release on Youtube and decide not to buy it I'm not losing any sleep over that, as on other occasions youtube has prompted me to make a purchase that I wasn't even considering.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
September 2nd, 2012, 10:05 PM
Yes, that's pretty much why I voted in my poll in the indifferent option for complete operas. First of all, the complete operas I (rarely) watch on YouTube are usually not available otherwise. When I do watch something that is available and decide not to buy it, it is like you said offset by the times when watching it compels me to buy it. Clips definitely make me want to buy something (when they're good). So I think for me the balance is positive for the recording companies, in terms of my use of YouTube.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
September 2nd, 2012, 10:24 PM
The poll is [here (http://operalively.com/forums/showthread.php/1192-YouTube-and-market-for-commercial-products-a-poll)] - so, participants in this thread, go there as well and vote, please.

Tardis
February 6th, 2013, 12:02 AM
I am resurrecting this thread because I wanted to ask about recordings that can't found anywhere else.

What if, for instance, you were looking for a recording of an European artist's performance that wasn't streamed anywhere else or posted on Youtube or on a DVD/CD?

Has anyone contacted opera houses to ask if they have an in-house recording?
Or is trying to locate a bootleg the only way to obtain a copy?

Aksel
February 6th, 2013, 08:03 AM
I am resurrecting this thread because I wanted to ask about recordings that can't found anywhere else.

What if, for instance, you were looking for a recording of an European artist's performance that wasn't streamed anywhere else or posted on Youtube or on a DVD/CD?

Has anyone contacted opera houses to ask if they have an in-house recording?
Or is trying to locate a bootleg the only way to obtain a copy?

You could of course ask the house, but I doubt they would be able to help you. If they have a recording (chances are they will), I don't think they are allowed to hand them out to strangers who ask, however nicely.

Bootlegs are probably the way to go. Unfortunately.

Tardis
February 6th, 2013, 09:36 AM
I dunno, I think the distinction I make between bootlegging and YT is that when someone uploads clips onto YT, they usually want to share something. I have always found Schigolch's thread "Great Singers of the Past" to be very educational. In my opinion, it's probably one of the most important threads in the forum, because it's almost like a historical record of former singers.

Whereas with bootlegging, these businesses are just there to make money off of it. They are not really trying to share anything. These businesses aren't recording it for their private collection. They are selling these out in public specifically for profit. They have commercialized bootlegging.
And the people running these businesses aren't really likeable, to be honest. Going through some of the posts and the forums they have frequented over the past decade, I have gotten the rather unpleasant impression that they are petty, manipulative and self-serving. It certainly makes interesting reading to read about these feuds that just erupt sporadically from time to time over it but I almost wish I hadn't read them. Now I know too much.

I really want this recording, but then I feel like I would be doing business with people who are ethically bankrupt. I think that's bothering me more.

MAuer
February 6th, 2013, 06:45 PM
I know the feeling. I've held off buying a recording with Jonas Kaufmann from a questionable source for that reason. (And I really, REALLY want that recording!)

Jephtha
February 6th, 2013, 07:03 PM
You could of course ask the house, but I doubt they would be able to help you. If they have a recording (chances are they will), I don't think they are allowed to hand them out to strangers who ask, however nicely.

Bootlegs are probably the way to go. Unfortunately.

Another factor that plays into the availability (or not) of house recordings is the musician's union. The release of the 1977 Vienna State Opera recording of Die Frau ohne Schatten was held up for nearly ten years because the Vienna Philharmonic were withholding their permission for the release. And when I was performing with the Opera Theatre of St. Louis, the productions were recorded and broadcast on the local NPR radio station, but we all had to sign a release giving permission for the broadcasts, otherwise they couldn't have taken place. I believe the union in this country are also responsible for the unavailability for so many years of legal releases of Metropolitan Opera recordings.

Soave_Fanciulla
February 6th, 2013, 08:27 PM
Another factor that plays into the availability (or not) of house recordings is the musician's union. The release of the 1977 Vienna State Opera recording of Die Frau ohne Schatten was held up for nearly ten years because the Vienna Philharmonic were withholding their permission for the release. And when I was performing with the Opera Theatre of St. Louis, the productions were recorded and broadcast on the local NPR radio station, but we all had to sign a release giving permission for the broadcasts, otherwise they couldn't have taken place. I believe the union in this country are also responsible for the unavailability for so many years of legal releases of Metropolitan Opera recordings.

Effectively by doing this, all the unions are achieving is to encourage the dissemination of illegal bootlegs and YouTube videos, for which they are GUARANTEED to get no royalties whatsoever!

HarpsichordConcerto
February 7th, 2013, 08:57 AM
What does bootlegging mean here? I don't see anything wrong having clips available on Youtube. It serves as a sample of the piece / performance, which either motivates me to buy the recording / explore more of the music or forget it altogether for now.

MAuer
February 7th, 2013, 07:19 PM
I don't consider what's on YouTube bootlegging. To me, bootleg performances are those surreptitiously recorded during live events and then sold commercially (with the money all going in the sellers' pockets, of course).

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
February 7th, 2013, 09:01 PM
What does bootlegging mean here? I don't see anything wrong having clips available on Youtube. It serves as a sample of the piece / performance, which either motivates me to buy the recording / explore more of the music or forget it altogether for now.

What we're calling bootlegs are the complete copies of a work that are recorded on CD or DVD by illegitimate businesses that don't respect copyrights, and then commercialize these pirate copies for rock-bottom prices, thus hurting the sales of bona fide recordings, those that legitimate business must license and pay royalties for. Therefore the bootlegging hurts the entire business, from singers to orchestras to recording companies, and decrease the market share for operatic music. Obviously if people can buy a recording of a performance for $5, many of them won't buy a legitimate one for $30, making the recording labels less interested in releasing products for the operatic - already niche - market.

Some people will argue that many operas don't exist as regular products so they must buy the bootlegs. I counter-argue, saying that maybe these operas *would* be available as regular, high quality products, if the limited interest for them wasn't being fulfilled by the pirates.

Maybe there is some validity to the claim when it's a really rare opera that won't ever interest a large recording label, no matter what.

But the problem with making this exception is that when we buy these, we're directly supporting the bootlegger, who will then be able to stay in business, and will be able to release other products that will compete directly with legitimate recordings.

If bootleggers *only* traded in the niche market of rare operas that major companies won't take, maybe I'd be less opposed to the idea. Sadly, while they all say that that's what they do, it's not true. If you consult the catalog of any of these shady businesses, you'll see dozens and dozens of operas that also exist as regular commercial products, and in many cases, plain pirated copies of the same production/performance that is available from a regular label.

A true case that I saw one of these days: Anna Netrebko's and Rolando Villazůn's L'Elisir d'Amore that is available on DVD from one of the major labels was broadcast to an European TV channel (much like NPR does in the United States) and was recorded from TV by a bootlegger, who made DVDs out of it and placed them on sale. So, they claim that since it was recorded from TV, it's public domain. BS. The exact same image and sound is the propriety of a legitimate label, and therefore each sale of the bootleg for $5 decreases the odds that someone will buy the legitimate product. The fact that the label licensed the product for a one-time TV broadcast doesn't mean that then anyone can go and record it, and make hundreds of copies for sale. That was not the purpose of the license. It's completely illegal, and a violation of copyrights.

Now, YouTube is another story. I actually fully support the availability of some performances on YouTube. It's a lot more, like other people said here, a question of diffusion rather than profit. Most people don't refrain from buying the legitimate product because there is a YouTube clip, because, among other factors (such as navigation, subtitles, etc.), YouTube clips don't have the sound and image quality of a DVD. Most likely, someone test-drives a production on YouTube then buys the real product. Even if there are people who refrain from buying because they can see it all on YouTube, it's probably more than offset by the number of people who weren't about to buy the product before, but ended up doing so after liking it on YouTube. Instead of hurting the market, the practice likely helps it (which makes it really stupid from the part of the labels to prosecute people who upload clips of their products). No such thing with bootlegs. These can't help, and can only hurt the industry.

Since we all love our art form and we want the labels to continue to support it, we shouldn't be buying bootlegs.

Tardis
February 8th, 2013, 12:20 AM
I have a problem with commercialized bootlegging. What also bothers me is that unlike the music industry companies, the Metropolitan Opera Association and other opera houses are artistic nonprofit institutions.

I am more ambivalent about bootleggers who record for their own private collections. I still won't do it myself, but I can understand why someone might want to preserve a certain memory or have it as a historical record.


If bootleggers *only* traded in the niche market of rare operas that major companies won't take, maybe I'd be less opposed to the idea. Sadly, while they all say that that's what they do, it's not true. If you consult the catalog of any of these shady businesses, you'll see dozens and dozens of operas that also exist as regular commercial products, and in many cases, plain pirated copies of the same production/performance that is available from a regular label.

Tardis
February 8th, 2013, 02:54 AM
Personally, I wouldn't touch those bootleg sellers with a ten-foot pole. One bootleg seller actually sued another bootleg seller, for stealing material that they stole themselves! There are some seriously vile, vile posts floating around. Trust me, you don't want to read them.

There are alternatives, if you know where to look. We shouldn't encourage commercial bootleggers because they will release other products that will compete directly with legitimate recordings.


I know the feeling. I've held off buying a recording with Jonas Kaufmann from a questionable source for that reason. (And I really, REALLY want that recording!)

HarpsichordConcerto
February 8th, 2013, 09:31 AM
I see. I don't want to buy inferior copies. I want the original licensed products, not least because of the support it gives to the industry but also the product itself comes with engineered sound and picture quality we demand from professional products.

Youtube does not equate to bootlegging. The Youtube clips are not selling anything directly from Youtube. There is no Youtube basket to checkout per se.

Florestan
December 15th, 2017, 12:18 AM
Buy this, and this.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Klt6n3lnL._SL500_AA300_.jpghttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UCDcft9vL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Then, recording companies might realize that she got a market, and release more of her. That's my point.

I have that DVD, so now I feel compelled to pursue her on other recordings such as shown above. :)

SenaJurinac
December 17th, 2017, 11:13 AM
I myself ever watch/listen the whole opera on YouTube. But I did use the Pirate Bay (torrents) to download several whole CDs or DVDs, in most cases those which I could not find at eBay or Amazon, and then "burnt" them onto empty discs.

There ARE YouTube alternatives too, such as Veoh.com, Vimeo.com and Web.tv, and some whole operas can be found there as well

MAuer
December 17th, 2017, 01:00 PM
I've listened (and that's usually what it entails) to entire operas on YouTube when it involved particular singers or works I really wanted to hear -- i.e., concert performances of the 1805 and 1806 versions of Fidelio (thanks to Florestan for the latter:)), a concert performance of Mozart's La Clemenza di Tito with Werner Krenn and Teresa Berganza, and a staged performance of Saint-SaŽns' Henry VIII from San Diego that was sung in English and had Sherrill Milnes as the King -- but it was only an audio recording accompanied by photos of the lead singers. I prefer to buy the DVDs or CDs if they're available, and did end up purchasing a studio recording of Tito with Krenn and Berganza.