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View Full Version : Absolute masterpieces by country - voting thread (closed)



Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 04:17 AM
THIS PROJECT IS NOW CLOSED. THIS WAS THE VOTING THREAD. SEE THE END RESULTS BY CLICKING [HERE (http://operalively.com/forums/showthread.php/2484-The-Opera-Lively-List-of-Operatic-Masterpieces-By-Country)]

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Just for the sake of having some fun, I thought of a thread listing the really, really, really top operatic masterpieces, separated by country.

NEW READERS OF THIS THREAD - AFTER YOU READ THE RULES HERE, IF YOU WANT TO COPY AND PASTE IN ORDER TO ADD TO THE LIST, PLEASE BROWSE TO THE END OF THE THREAD AND DO SO FROM THE LATEST, MOST UPDATED PUBLISHED LIST SO THAT ALL INPUTS ARE CONSIDERED; THANKS.

The definition of masterpiece for the sake of this thread would have to be those operas and operettas that are entirely breathtaking in every single aspect and leave us completely in awe of the creators' talent. They need to be perfect in all regards. For example, if an opera is musically sublime but lacks theatrical pace or has *too* silly and problematic a plot, it wouldn't qualify.

How do we separate operas by country?

What I'd propose for the sake of this thread, is that the piece needs to be by a composer who is/was a citizen of that country at the time of composition or at least had thoroughly adopted that country as his/her own (e.g., the operas by Meyerbeer and the operettas by Offenbach should be considered French; most Handel operas after 1712 should be claimed by the United Kingdom). That's the number one, absolute criterion. Hopefully the librettist will also be a citizen, and the text will be in the official language spoken in that country, although these characteristics won't be absolutely required (that is, an opera by Mozart in Italian and with an Italian librettist should still qualify as Austrian). A composer could have operas belonging to different countries: operas composed after naturalization or after the artist completely and thoroughly moved to the other country and adopted its cultural traits, would be part of the patrimony of the country of adoption or naturalization. In doubt, we should consult an encyclopedia, comparing the date of composition to the composer's biography.

Operas, operettas, and operatic-worthy oratorios qualify for this thread.

There are certain countries that have heavier production than others. We'll make of each one a separate category; then at the end we'll have a place for "others" so that we don't miss masterpieces by composers from countries that weren't very prolific in operatic composition.

The main countries are:

Italy
Germany
Austria
France
Russia
The United States
The United Kingdom
The Czech Republic

Then, we'd have the Others category, including for example Latin American countries, Spain, Hungary, Scandinavian countries, and other countries with smaller operatic production.

How do we include operas in the list? Like I said, they need to be true masterpieces in all aspects. So that it's not merely a question of individual preference, an opera needs to be proposed by an Opera Lively member, and seconded by another member.

Now, once an opera makes it (by being endorsed as a masterpiece by two Opera Lively members) let's suppose someone has strong objections to considering an opera a masterpiece: it could be removed from the list, under a petition by a member, seconded by *two* other members. Let's also say that if an opera is endorsed by six members, it can no longer be removed from the list.

No limits will exist, given that the numbers are so different: Germany and Italy would have too many to include and we'd miss many if we got a limit.

Why should we do a list like this one, if we already have one for our preferred operas?

One, just for fun. That should be motive enough.

Two, one can *love* an opera but maybe it isn't a true masterpiece according to this thread's definition, so, operas might have made the OL's top 100 list without being masterpieces (which is fine; it's just a different approach). For example, an opera that I think of as a masterpiece is St. François d'Assise. However it is too long and uneven so I thought that in spite of my personal preference, it wouldn't belong here. We can perfectly love many operas without calling them true masterpieces. For example, I love La Fille du Régiment but find it a little thin to call it a masterpiece. The opposite is also true: one can recognize an opera as a masterpiece while coldly analyzing it, but maybe the person doesn't really love that opera - so, it would be here, but not in the preferred operas list. So, the lists are different.

Three, it would be interesting to debate which ones to include under this definition, and which ones to exclude. Anyway, this thread then is an excuse to discuss opera. This is likely to be the main motive.

Four, by separating by country we see it all more clearly and we can have the added fun of ranking countries by number of masterpieces, at the end.

Do you guys/gals want to play?

We'd go adding as many as we want to propose and defend, to each country, eventually removing a few if three people strongly disagree. I'll be updating the list from time to time, with the ones that have qualified under the rules, as people propose them, endorse them, or petition against them.

Hopefully enough people will join me in this exercise; if not, the thread will just die out, which is fine.

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So, I'll start. Non-inclusive lists; I'll just be typing up the ones that come to my head right now; will add others later as they come to mind. Also, maybe it's *too* inclusive - I did include some iffy cases in purpose, so that there is discussion about eliminating some of them. Notable exclusions will also be something to discuss.

I consider masterpieces from the USA:

Porgy and Bess
The Rake's Progress
The Consul
The Medium
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
The Death of Klinghoffer
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic

From the United Kingdom:

Dido and Aeneas
The Fairy Queen
Peter Grimes
Death in Venice
Written on Skin
The Tempest
The Minotaur
The Pirates of Penzance
Giulio Cesare
Rodelinda
Ariodante
Serse
Hercules
Theodora

From France

Les Troyens
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Dialogues des Carmélites
Pelléas et Mélisande
Les Contes d'Hoffmann
Carmen
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
Orfée et Euridice (hard to classify but got the bulk of its success in the French version with Glück living in Paris)
Les Indes Galantes
Atys
Manon
Guillaume Tell
L'Enfant et les sortilèges
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné

From Russia

Eugene Onegin
Boris Godunov
Kovanschina
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya
Prince Igor
Betrothal in a Monastery
The Love for Three Oranges
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District

From Austria

Lulu
Die Fledermaus
Die lustige Witwe
Paride ed Elena (belongs to Glück's Austrian phase)
Don Giovanni
Così fan Tutte
Le Nozze di Figaro
Idomeneo
La Clemenza di Tito
Die Entführung aus dem Serail

From Germany

Boulevard Solitude
Die Tote Stadt
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Der Rosenkavalier
Salome
Elektra
Die Soldaten
Die Walküre
Das Rheingold
Gotterdämerung
Lohengrin
Tristan und Isolde
Tannhäuser
Fidelio
Der Freischutz
Euryanthe

From Italy

La Traviata
Rigoletto
Il Trovatore
Macbeth
Don Carlo
Simon Boccanegra
Otello
La Bohème
Tosca
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
Norma
I Capuleti e I Montecchi
Lucia di Lammermoor
L'elisir d'amore
Il Barbiere di Siviglia
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola
Armida
Ermione
L'Italiana in Algeri
Cavalleria Rusticana
I Paggliaci
L'Orfeo
La Didonne
Luce mie traditrice

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride
Rusalka
Jenufa
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

Bluebeard's Castle
Le Grand Macabre
King Roger
L'Amour de Loin
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

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For now none of the above belong to the list since they haven't been endorsed by a second member.

Clayton
April 26th, 2015, 10:09 AM
I like this idea very much and am very interested in some fun discussions.

However I will get off to a poor start with USA; I have nothing to nominate and nothing to object to either. I don't know any.

Porgy and Bess has been in and out of my shopping basket so many times but I have not managed to press purchase on any occasion for one reason or the other.

Glass' Orphee remains in my to-listen-to pile and whilst I am very interested in Satyagraha have not found the CD yet. I will visit the Akhnaten that Vlad posted in another thread soon.

I did watch the Doctor Atomic once and whilst I thought of Finley was outstanding and the tribal chant beautiful, there was some parts that I thought were not exciting. I was not so impressed with the underlying subject matter, only that it gave the terrific platform for the Doctor. I will revisit it again though.

Now for the United Kingdom, that will be different...

Clayton
April 26th, 2015, 10:33 AM
for United Kingdom,

I endorse

Peter Grimes
Written on Skin
Giulio Cesare
Rodelinda

However I also consider a masterpiece

Billy Budd
Alcina
Rinaldo
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

Clayton
April 26th, 2015, 11:00 AM
for France

I endorse

Atys
Dialogues des Carmélites
Guillaume Tell
Les Indes Galantes

I endorse Gluck's Orfeo ed Euridice but in the original form. What do we do with that endorsement? (Please don't say we file it in the round filing cabinet along with all your other proposals !)

I also propose as a masterpiece

Dardanus
Médée (Charpentier, M-A)
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Phaéton
Benvenuto Cellini
Faust
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Robert Le Diable

Clayton
April 26th, 2015, 11:29 AM
for Russia

I endorse

Eugene Onegin
Boris Godunov
Prince Igor
The Legend of The Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya (**I would like to endorse this six times)

I also recognize as a masterpiece

The Demon
Iolanta
Snegurotchka
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan
War and Peace

MAuer
April 26th, 2015, 12:10 PM
My endorsements:

Austria
The Mozart-da Ponte operas (Cosi fan tutte, Don Giovanni, Le Nozze di Figaro)
Die Entführung aus dem Serail
La Clemenza di Tito

Germany
Wagner's Ring cycle. I notice that Siegfried has been omitted from the list, but I think the cycle as a whole would be considered a masterpiece.
Lohengrin
Der fliegende Holländer
Tannhäuser
I will abstain from any voting on Fidelio. I love the opera nearly to the point of obsession, and while it's certainly a masterpiece to me, I've also read many reviews that refer to it as flawed. Since my opinions can't be considered in any way objective where this opera is concerned, I'll leave it to other OL members to decide whether or not it should be included on the list.

Italy
Rigoletto
La Traviata
Otello (Verdi's)
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's)

I would like to nominate Mozart's Die Zauberflöte for Austria, and Puccini's Madama Butterfly for Italy.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 01:22 PM
So to keep track of the ones that have been seconded, I'll copy and paste my list and add people's new nominations, and put an asterisk next to the ones that have been confirmed (one for each endorsement - once they get 5 they can't be removed since the first nomination is the sixth endorsement), and a minus sign next to the ones in jeopardy for being challenged - three minuses and they get removed).

I suggest that subsequent posters do this too - copy and paste the list into a new post, add their nominees if they aren't there yet, put an asterisk next to the ones that are already there but they endorse, and a minus next to the ones they challenge.

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess
The Rake's Progress
The Consul
The Medium
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
The Death of Klinghoffer
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic - (I guess Clayton's comment qualifies as challenging it as not being a masterpiece)

From the United Kingdom:

Dido and Aeneas
The Fairy Queen
Peter Grimes *
Death in Venice
Written on Skin *
The Tempest
The Minotaur
The Pirates of Penzance
Giulio Cesare *
Rodelinda *
Ariodante
Serse
Hercules
Theodora
Billy Budd - (I challenge it, I really hate this opera - bracing for being hit in the head with a dead fish by Natalie - due to too many male voices and no prominent soprano role)
Alcina * (I endorse it too)
Rinaldo (one year before Handel's move to London but did premiere in London, so, fine)
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Dialogues des Carmélites *
Pelléas et Mélisande
Les Contes d'Hoffmann
Carmen
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
Les Indes Galantes *
Atys *
Manon
Guillaume Tell *
L'Enfant et les sortilèges
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Médée (Chapentier's)
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Benvenuto Cellini * (I endorse it too)
Faust
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Robert Le Diable - (the second one I challenge - I find it really messy to be considered a masterpiece, would rather from Meyerbeer nominate the much less famous Dinorah)
Dinorah

From Russia

Eugene Onegin *
Boris Godunov *
Kovanschina
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya *
Prince Igor *
Betrothal in a Monastery
The Love for Three Oranges
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
The Demon
Iolanta * (I endorse it too)
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan
War and Peace * (I endorse it too)

From Austria

Lulu
Die Fledermaus
Die lustige Witwe
Paride ed Elena (belongs to Glück's Austrian phase)
Orfeo ed Euridice * (fair enough to move it to Austria, Clayton; it did premiere in Vienna)
Don Giovanni *
Così fan Tutte *
Le Nozze di Figaro *
Idomeneo
La Clemenza di Tito *
Die Entführung aus dem Serail *
Die Zauberflöte * (I endorse it too - had left it out thinking it is a bit messy, but OK, come on, it *is* a masterpiece)

From Germany

Boulevard Solitude
Die Tote Stadt
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Der Rosenkavalier
Salome
Elektra
Die Soldaten
Die Walküre *
Das Rheingold *
Gotterdämerung *
Lohengrin *
Tristan und Isolde
Tannhäuser *
Fidelio
Der Freischutz
Euryanthe
Siegfried * (oh, what the hell, I endorse it too; I had left it out for some longueurs but it is certainly more "masterpiecy" than some stuff that I nominated myself, so...)

From Italy

La Traviata *
Rigoletto *
Il Trovatore
Macbeth
Don Carlo
Simon Boccanegra
Otello (Verdi's) *
La Bohème
Tosca
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
Norma
I Capuleti e I Montecchi
Lucia di Lammermoor
L'elisir d'amore
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola
Armida
Ermione
L'Italiana in Algeri
Cavalleria Rusticana
I Paggliaci
L'Orfeo
La Didonne
Luce mie traditrice
Madama Butterfly

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride
Rusalka
Jenufa
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

Bluebeard's Castle
Le Grand Macabre
King Roger
L'Amour de Loin
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 01:49 PM
I'm surprised that Clayton didn't endorse Paride ed Elena - isn't this one of your favorite operas?

At MAuer, I'd be tempted to refuse to accept your abstention for Fidelio since you said "for me it's a masterpiece" which sounds like a vote. You know, people call it flawed, but maybe you should trust yourself. I know it's a bit flawed but personally I still think it is a masterpiece. However, in respect of your decision, I did not place an asterisk beside it, but I invite you to reconsider.

Clayton
April 26th, 2015, 02:15 PM
I'm surprised that Clayton didn't endorse Paride ed Elena - isn't this one of your favorite operas?
...

I only got as far as Russia before I was distracted; I went to another ball in Boston after that

and yes, it is one of my favorites that I think is a masterpiece. I need you to clarify the rules here on duelling should some one challenge.

I also want to ask what you mean by "messy" about Robert Le Diable. I was a little hesitant about listing this due to my lack of expertise; I have only listened to it four times but I thought it had very good composition throughout...

Amfortas
April 26th, 2015, 02:39 PM
I will second the following:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess
The Rake's Progress

From the United Kingdom:

Dido and Aeneas
Peter Grimes
Giulio Cesare

From France

Les Troyens
Pelléas et Mélisande
Les Contes d'Hoffmann
Carmen
Manon

From Russia

Eugene Onegin
Boris Godunov

From Austria

Lulu
Don Giovanni
Così fan Tutte
Le Nozze di Figaro

From Germany

Der Rosenkavalier
Salome
Elektra
Die Walküre
Das Rheingold
Götterdämmerung
Lohengrin
Tristan und Isolde
Fidelio

From Italy

La Traviata
Rigoletto
Don Carlo
Otello

From the Czech Republic

Rusalka

I would also add, pretty insistently:

Falstaff
Siegfried
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Parsifal
Wozzeck
Die Zauberflöte
War and Peace

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 03:46 PM
OK, so with Amfortas' input (I wonder why he nominated Parsifal, LOL), and Clayton's post below with three more endorsements, we'd have the following:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess *
The Rake's Progress *
The Consul
The Medium
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
The Death of Klinghoffer
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -

From the United Kingdom:

Dido and Aeneas *
The Fairy Queen
Peter Grimes **
Death in Venice
Written on Skin *
The Tempest
The Minotaur
The Pirates of Penzance
Giulio Cesare **
Rodelinda *
Ariodante
Serse
Hercules
Theodora
Billy Budd -
Alcina *
Rinaldo
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens *
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Dialogues des Carmélites *
Pelléas et Mélisande *
Les Contes d'Hoffmann *
Carmen *
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
Les Indes Galantes *
Atys *
Manon *
Guillaume Tell *
L'Enfant et les sortilèges
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Médée (Chapentier's)
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Robert Le Diable -
Dinorah

From Russia

Eugene Onegin **
Boris Godunov **
Kovanschina
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya *
Prince Igor *
Betrothal in a Monastery
The Love for Three Oranges
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
The Demon
Iolanta *
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan
War and Peace **

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck * (what the hell, I endorse it too)
Die Fledermaus
Die lustige Witwe
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice *
Don Giovanni ***
Così fan Tutte **
Le Nozze di Figaro **
Idomeneo
La Clemenza di Tito **
Die Entführung aus dem Serail *
Die Zauberflöte **

From Germany

Boulevard Solitude
Die Tote Stadt *
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Der Rosenkavalier *
Salome *
Elektra *
Die Soldaten
Die Walküre **
Das Rheingold **
Gotterdämerung **
Lohengrin ***
Tristan und Isolde *
Tannhäuser *
Fidelio *
Der Freischutz
Euryanthe
Siegfried **
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg **
Parsifal *
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata **
Rigoletto **
Il Trovatore
Macbeth
Don Carlo *
Simon Boccanegra
Otello (Verdi's) **
La Bohème
Tosca
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
Norma
I Capuleti e I Montecchi
Lucia di Lammermoor
L'elisir d'amore
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola
Armida
Ermione
L'Italiana in Algeri
Cavalleria Rusticana
I Paggliaci
L'Orfeo
La Didonne
Luce mie traditrice
Madama Butterfly
Falstaff

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride
Rusalka *
Jenufa
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

Bluebeard's Castle
Le Grand Macabre
King Roger
L'Amour de Loin
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 03:49 PM
I like Amfortas' restrained approach to the concept of Masterpiece. My initial list was over-inclusive, which is interesting as it fosters more debates.

I guess I recognize Parsifal as a musical masterpiece but will stubbornly not vote for it as an overall masterpiece, since I detest its cloying libretto. I wouldn't go as far as petitioning for taking it out.

At Clayton - my "petitioning" for striking out an opera, is just a matter of saying one disagrees that it is a masterpiece, then I'll place a minus sign next to it. If we have three minuses and we don't have six asterisks, then it is taken out of the list.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 03:56 PM
Why I'm less than 100% sold on Robert le Diable - a bit bombastic, with the vocal writing tending to be a bit loud and over-the-top. You are right that the orchestral and choral parts are very pleasant, and there is rather good rhythm, and variety, but there are pacing problems, such as overlong scenes for Bertram who sings and sings to the point that I joked about it calling it Bertram le Diable. Acts I and II have good pace but Act III has a long, long first scene, Act IV is very bombastic and also overlong; then act V gets good pace again. This irregularity makes me call it messy.

Clayton
April 26th, 2015, 04:02 PM
for Austria

I endorse

Paride ed Elena (all petitions for this piece should be done at the family memorial at dawn in person, a second will not be accepted)
Don Giovanni
La Clemenza di Tito

nothing to add

JohnGerald
April 26th, 2015, 04:02 PM
My reservation about this thread (which will be both interesting and educational to follow) lies in the definition of "Masterpiece". Since operatic tastes are subjective, I am sure that my definition of the term would involve a much different list than many of the operas Luiz has listed. For example, the Italian section would include more Bel Canto works, and the German section very few. That's the joy of it really: there is something for every taste, and on this site, at least, no one gets flamed for having different preferences than do others.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 04:06 PM
My reservation about this thread (which will be both interesting and educational to follow) lies in the definition of "Masterpiece". Since operatic tastes are subjective, I am sure that my definition of the term would involve a much different list than many of the operas Luiz has listed. For example, the Italian section would include more Bel Canto works, and the German section very few. That's the joy of it really: there is something for every taste, and on this site, at least, no one gets flamed for having different preferences than do others.

Exactly, that's why I asked for endorsements and for challenges, since people's definition of a masterpiece and preferences will differ, so to get to a final collective list, we'd have to include those that do get the agreement of some members and are not challenged out by some others. Clarifying, agreeing with, and reaffirming what JohnGerald said, disagreeing about whether or not an opera is a masterpiece is a matter for fun debate, not a matter for flaming. As usual, on Opera Lively we respect each others' opinions, and when we disagree, we respectfully do so.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 04:12 PM
Interesting. So far, Italy is not faring very well in the matter of endorsements. France, Austria, and Germany are doing fine.

JohnGerald
April 26th, 2015, 04:14 PM
Well, that's why I asked for endorsements and for challenges, since people's definition of a masterpiece and preferences will differ, so to get to a final collective list, we'd have to include those that do get the agreement of some members and are not challenged out by some others. Disagreeing about whether or not an opera is a masterpiece is a matter for fun debate, not a matter of flaming. As usual, on Opera Lively we respect each others' opinions, and when we disagree, we respectfully do so.

OK, then. A list of Operatic Masterpieces here would include the Donizetti Tudor Queen trilogy (Anna Bolena, Maria Stuarda and Roberto Devereaux -- like the Ring with more melody and less brass), Guillaume Tell (which has gobsmacked me, despite the staging), La Favorite and Ernani. the latter due to energetic melody and compact structure.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 04:15 PM
OK, then. A list of Operatic Masterpieces here would include the Donizetti Tudor Queen trilogy (Anna Bolena, Maria Stuarda and Roberto Devereaux -- like the Ring with more melody and less brass), Guillaume Tell (which has gobsmacked me, despite the staging), La Favorite and Ernani. the latter due to energetic melody and compact structure.

I rephrased what I said since I was actually agreeing with you but the way I initially phrased it, it appeared like a disagreement.

JohnGerald
April 26th, 2015, 04:20 PM
In most matters, disagreement is what folks frequently do. It is when they do so disagreeably that things get intense. Disagreement can be educational, I think.

Clayton
April 26th, 2015, 04:23 PM
for Germany

I endorse

Die Tote Stadt
Lohengrin
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Parsifal

and also think as a masterpiece

Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 04:35 PM
Now, with JohnGerald's input and Clayton's Germany input:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess *
The Rake's Progress *
The Consul
The Medium
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
The Death of Klinghoffer
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -

From the United Kingdom:

Dido and Aeneas *
The Fairy Queen
Peter Grimes **
Death in Venice
Written on Skin *
The Tempest
The Minotaur
The Pirates of Penzance
Giulio Cesare **
Rodelinda *
Ariodante
Serse
Hercules
Theodora
Billy Budd -
Alcina *
Rinaldo
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens *
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Dialogues des Carmélites *
Pelléas et Mélisande *
Les Contes d'Hoffmann *
Carmen *
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
Les Indes Galantes *
Atys *
Manon *
Guillaume Tell ***
L'Enfant et les sortilèges
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Médée (Chapentier's)
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Robert Le Diable -
Dinorah
La Favorite

From Russia

Eugene Onegin **
Boris Godunov **
Kovanschina
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya *
Prince Igor *
Betrothal in a Monastery
The Love for Three Oranges
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
The Demon
Iolanta *
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan
War and Peace **

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck * (what the hell, I endorse it too)
Die Fledermaus
Die lustige Witwe
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice *
Don Giovanni ***
Così fan Tutte **
Le Nozze di Figaro **
Idomeneo
La Clemenza di Tito **
Die Entführung aus dem Serail *
Die Zauberflöte **

From Germany

Boulevard Solitude
Die Tote Stadt *
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Der Rosenkavalier *
Salome *
Elektra *
Die Soldaten
Die Walküre **
Das Rheingold **
Gotterdämerung **
Lohengrin ***
Tristan und Isolde *
Tannhäuser *
Fidelio *
Der Freischutz
Euryanthe
Siegfried **
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg **
Parsifal *
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata ***
Rigoletto **
Il Trovatore *
Macbeth
Don Carlo *
Simon Boccanegra
Otello (Verdi's) ***
La Bohème
Tosca *
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
Norma *
I Capuleti e I Montecchi
Lucia di Lammermoor *
L'elisir d'amore
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola
Armida
Ermione
L'Italiana in Algeri
Cavalleria Rusticana
I Paggliaci
L'Orfeo *
La Didonne
Luce mie traditrice
Madama Butterfly
Falstaff
Ernani *
Roberto Devereux * (I endorse it too, it's my favorite of the trilogy due to melodic content)
Anna Bolena *
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani *
Beatrice di Tenda
L'incoronazione di Poppea
Artaserse (Vinci)
La Verità in cimento
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride
Rusalka *
Jenufa
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

Bluebeard's Castle
Le Grand Macabre
King Roger
L'Amour de Loin
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Clayton
April 26th, 2015, 04:47 PM
apologies to the Captain for doing this piecemeal I have a small notepad (hah! you thought I was going to say brain)

for Italy

I endorse

La Traviata
Il Trovatore
Otello
Tosca
Norma
Lucia di Lammermoor
L'Orfeo

I also would classify as a masterpiece

Nabucco
Ernani
Anna Bolena
Maria Stuarda
I Puritani
Beatrice di Tenda
L'incoronazione di Poppea
Artaserse (Vinci)
La Verità in cimento
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)

JohnGerald
April 26th, 2015, 04:51 PM
How did I forget I Puritani??? Absolutely -- after all, the "Puritani Quartet" were legendary singers who made a lot of lira on that name.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 04:52 PM
Post 22 is the latest list, it already contains, through editing, Clayton's and JohnGerald's further input from posts 23 and 24.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 05:00 PM
I'm quite sure when Annie gets to this thread, she will not endorse Simon Boccanegra, right? :angel:

JohnGerald
April 26th, 2015, 05:22 PM
I'm quite sure when Annie gets to this thread, she will not endorse Simon Boccanegra, right? :angel:

Is there one with bare chested baritones?

Assets of a different gender, don't ye ken ...:kiss.1:

Amfortas
April 26th, 2015, 05:28 PM
I like Amfortas' restrained approach to the concept of Masterpiece. My initial list was over-inclusive, which is interesting as it fosters more debates.

I kept my list relatively short, but don't mean to suggest it's exhaustive. There are plenty of operatic masterpieces I don't know well or fully appreciate.


I guess I recognize Parsifal as a musical masterpiece but will stubbornly not vote for it as an overall masterpiece, since I detest its cloying libretto. I wouldn't go as far as petitioning for taking it out.

I see a tension between the idea of "masterpiece" and a work "perfect in all regards." Some of the operas I would rate most highly can be faulted in one regard or another. But I suppose these concerns will be sorted out in the voting.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 05:33 PM
I kept my list relatively short, but don't mean to suggest it's exhaustive. There are plenty of operatic masterpieces I don't know well or fully appreciate.



I see a tension between the idea of "masterpiece" and a work "perfect in all regards." Some of the operas I would rate most highly can be faulted in one regard or another. But I suppose these concerns will be sorted out in the voting.

Right, maybe I was too strict in suggesting that a true masterpiece needs to be perfect in all regards, given that perfection is a very elusive trait and one can arguably say that there is nothing in an art form that is truly 100% perfect.

Still, we might keep some measure of thinking that for a final Opera Lively list of true masterpieces, only the very very good, somewhat close to perfection works should be included, somehow (but I suspect the final list will be over-inclusive, and I'm at fault for this too since my initial list was so extensive - I don't think some of the operas I listed would truly qualify if we were to follow my own very strict criteria).

JohnGerald
April 26th, 2015, 05:36 PM
I have seen (but cannot recall where) a list of operas by the number of performances each has. I hate to tie the concept of popularity to the term "masterpiece", because the latter may get some support from musical academia. But popularity cannot be ignored, either.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 26th, 2015, 05:42 PM
I have seen (but cannot recall where) a list of operas by the number of performances each has. I hate to tie the concept of popularity to the term "masterpiece", because the latter may get some support from musical academia. But popularity cannot be ignored, either.

Somewhere in old threads we made references to such lists of most performed operas - from time to time Opera America posts one, or I think we can get those numbers from Operabase.

I think popularity indeed does have to do with masterpiece status because it is not for nothing that something becomes wildly popular, but it's not the only factor, obviously, and not a mandatory factor, otherwise poorly known (for various reasons, such as coming from a small country) works wouldn't have a shot at being called masterpieces.

For example, I consider Bluebeard's Castle an astounding masterpiece, but it coming out of Hungary, it is not as wildly popular as the great Italian 19th century operas, etc. Still, strictly speaking from the musical and theatrical standpoints, Blueberd's Castle is close to perfection, so the fact that it isn't wildly popular shouldn't stop one from calling it a masterpiece.

Also, some operas are just so difficult to stage that the public doesn't often get the opportunity to appreciate them, such as Les Troyens, which is so long and requires so many characters and such a numerous chorus that it is beyond the means of the overwhelming majority of opera companies. Therefore it is not easy for the public to ever see it (it's been mitigated by it being very well represented on DVD and blu-ray), which counts against its popularity. Still, if there is something that deserves the title of masterpiece, Les Troyens in my opinion clearly qualifies.

MAuer
April 27th, 2015, 01:23 PM
My latest endorsements:

From the USA:
Porgy and Bess **

From France
Carmen **
Manon **
Faust*

From Russia
Eugene Onegin ***

From Germany
Der Rosenkavalier **

From Italy
Tosca **
I Paggliaci*
Anna Bolena **
L'incoronazione di Poppea*

From the Czech Republic
The Bartered Bride*
Rusalka **

Amfortas
April 27th, 2015, 05:38 PM
I'll add a recommendation for Poppea.

Hoffmann
April 28th, 2015, 02:18 PM
I'm coming in late to this, so would only comment that when it comes to absolute masterpieces, I don't think there are that many.

Anyway, the one that seems to be left out is Bellini's I Puritani.

JohnGerald
April 28th, 2015, 02:26 PM
I'm coming in late to this, so would only comment that when it comes to absolute masterpieces, I don't think there are that many.

Anyway, the one that seems to be left out is Bellini's I Puritani.

Luiz added Puritani. See amended list on page 2.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 28th, 2015, 04:02 PM
Latest list with MAuer's endorsements and Hoffmann's endorsemet of I Puritani (which indeed was already there but gets another asterisk) and Amfortas' Poppea which also collects another asterisk:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess **
The Rake's Progress *
The Consul
The Medium
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
The Death of Klinghoffer
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -

From the United Kingdom:

Dido and Aeneas *
The Fairy Queen
Peter Grimes **
Death in Venice
Written on Skin *
The Tempest
The Minotaur
The Pirates of Penzance
Giulio Cesare **
Rodelinda *
Ariodante
Serse
Hercules
Theodora
Billy Budd -
Alcina *
Rinaldo
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens *
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Dialogues des Carmélites *
Pelléas et Mélisande *
Les Contes d'Hoffmann *
Carmen **
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
Les Indes Galantes *
Atys *
Manon **
Guillaume Tell ***
L'Enfant et les sortilèges
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Médée (Chapentier's)
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust *
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Robert Le Diable -
Dinorah
La Favorite

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ***
Boris Godunov **
Kovanschina
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya *
Prince Igor *
Betrothal in a Monastery
The Love for Three Oranges
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
The Demon
Iolanta *
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan
War and Peace **

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck * (what the hell, I endorse it too)
Die Fledermaus
Die lustige Witwe
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice *
Don Giovanni ***
Così fan Tutte **
Le Nozze di Figaro **
Idomeneo
La Clemenza di Tito **
Die Entführung aus dem Serail *
Die Zauberflöte **

From Germany

Boulevard Solitude
Die Tote Stadt *
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Der Rosenkavalier **
Salome *
Elektra *
Die Soldaten
Die Walküre **
Das Rheingold **
Gotterdämerung **
Lohengrin ***
Tristan und Isolde *
Tannhäuser *
Fidelio *
Der Freischutz
Euryanthe
Siegfried **
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg **
Parsifal *
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata ***
Rigoletto **
Il Trovatore *
Macbeth
Don Carlo *
Simon Boccanegra
Otello (Verdi's) ***
La Bohème
Tosca **
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
Norma *
I Capuleti e I Montecchi
Lucia di Lammermoor *
L'elisir d'amore
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola
Armida
Ermione
L'Italiana in Algeri
Cavalleria Rusticana
I Paggliaci *
L'Orfeo *
La Didonne
Luce mie traditrice
Madama Butterfly
Falstaff
Ernani *
Roberto Devereux * (I endorse it too, it's my favorite of the trilogy due to melodic content)
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani **
Beatrice di Tenda
L'incoronazione di Poppea
Artaserse (Vinci)
La Verità in cimento
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)
L'incoronazione di Poppea **

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride *
Rusalka **
Jenufa
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

Bluebeard's Castle
Le Grand Macabre
King Roger
L'Amour de Loin
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 28th, 2015, 04:05 PM
We're missing Annie's and Nat's inputs.
I'm anticipating that Annie will endorse Simon Boccanegra and I'm hopeful that Nat will give to Written on Skin another asterisk but will certainly endorse Billy Budd, to my dismay, hehe.

(PS to Annie - Any endorsement of Il Trovatore would have to specify that it is for the opera, not for a certain detestable version of it, LOL)

Clayton
April 28th, 2015, 04:50 PM
We're missing Annie's and Nat's inputs...

or input from any member is welcome and asked for...

- - - Updated - - -

(just in case your wondering whether you can contribute or not)

- - - Updated - - -

please do

- - - Updated - - -

go on, you know you want to

- - - Updated - - -

it's just for fun

- - - Updated - - -

unless you challenge Paride ed Elena

- - - Updated - - -

then there might be conflict

- - - Updated - - -

only joking

Hoffmann
April 28th, 2015, 05:16 PM
Ok, my endorsements:

From the USA:


From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare **

Rinaldo

From France

Les Contes d'Hoffmann *
Carmen **
Guillaume Tell ***

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ***
Boris Godunov **

From Austria

Orfeo ed Euridice *
Don Giovanni ***
Così fan Tutte **
Le Nozze di Figaro **
Idomeneo
La Clemenza di Tito **
Die Entführung aus dem Serail *
Die Zauberflöte **

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt *
Der Rosenkavalier **
Salome *
Elektra *
Die Walküre **
Das Rheingold **
Gotterdämerung **
Lohengrin ***
Tristan und Isolde *
Tannhäuser *
Fidelio *
Siegfried **
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg **
Parsifal *

From Italy

La Traviata ***
Don Carlo *
Otello (Verdi's) ***
La Bohème
Tosca **
Norma *
I Capuleti e I Montecchi
Lucia di Lammermoor *
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *
Armida
L'Italiana in Algeri
Cavalleria Rusticana
Madama Butterfly
I Puritani **

From the Czech Republic

Jenufa


Others

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 28th, 2015, 05:28 PM
It would be good if people copied the entire list and then updated it with their endorsements, because if it's just a partial list then I'll have to go and update entry by entry and it's a bit time consuming. Would you re-do, Hoffmann? Especially with a large number of endorsements, it's hard for me to be comparing line by line, while if you copy and paste the entire list and go updating it, you'll know which ones you want to endorse without needing to compare line by line. Thanks.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 28th, 2015, 11:04 PM
OK, since Hoffmann didn't redo, I'll try to redo it. From now on folks, please don't use partial lists; copy and paste and then do your endorsements so that we always have the latest / updated list, thanks.

I'll also present it differently - the ones that have been already endorsed/confirmed first, separated by a line from the ones that have been nominated but not endorsed yet.

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess **
The Rake's Progress *
--------
The Consul
The Medium
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
The Death of Klinghoffer
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ***
Dido and Aeneas *
Rodelinda *
Peter Grimes **
Written on Skin *
Alcina *
Rinaldo *
-------------
Death in Venice
The Tempest
The Minotaur
The Pirates of Penzance
The Fairy Queen
Ariodante
Serse
Hercules
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia
Billy Budd -

From France

Les Troyens *
Dialogues des Carmélites *
Pelléas et Mélisande *
Les Contes d'Hoffmann **
Carmen ***
Les Indes Galantes *
Atys *
Manon **
Guillaume Tell ****
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust *
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
L'Enfant et les sortilèges
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Médée (Chapentier's)
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite
Robert Le Diable -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ****
Boris Godunov ***
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya *
Prince Igor *
War and Peace **
Iolanta *
------------
Kovanschina
Betrothal in a Monastery
The Love for Three Oranges
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
The Demon
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck *
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice **
Don Giovanni ****
Così fan Tutte ***
Le Nozze di Figaro ***
Idomeneo *
La Clemenza di Tito ***
Die Entführung aus dem Serail **
Die Zauberflöte ***
----------
Die Fledermaus
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt **
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome **
Elektra **
Die Walküre ***
Das Rheingold ***
Gotterdämerung ***
Lohengrin ****
Tristan und Isolde **
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio **
Siegfried ***
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal **
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Der Freischutz
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata ****
Rigoletto **
Il Trovatore *
Don Carlo **
Otello (Verdi's) ****
La Bohème
Tosca ***
Norma **
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor *
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) **
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana *
I Paggliaci *
L'Orfeo *
Madama Butterfly *
Falstaff
Ernani *
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani ***
L'incoronazione di Poppea **
Armida (Rossini's) *
------------
Macbeth
Simon Boccanegra
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
L'elisir d'amore
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola
Ermione
La Didonne
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
Artaserse (Vinci)
La Verità in cimento
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride *
Rusalka **
Jenufa *
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

Bluebeard's Castle
Le Grand Macabre
King Roger
L'Amour de Loin
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 28th, 2015, 11:16 PM
So far Italy leading with 24, Germany second with 14, Austria and France tied in third with 11, next Russia with 7, the United Kingdom with 6, the Czech Republic with 3, and the United States with 2.

Hoffmann
April 28th, 2015, 11:35 PM
Sorry about that.

I did my listing then went for a long walk and just now am returning online. I'll be more careful next time.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 29th, 2015, 12:07 AM
Sorry about that.

I did my listing then went for a long walk and just now am returning online. I'll be more careful next time.

Oh, that's OK, I went ahead and did it because I was afraid if these two very different lists lingered, someone might go from yours and then things might become messy and hard to sort out.

Let's plan on doing it from now on.

Although, in my experience, every time I asked for something like that in the past, in other list threads, most people didn't follow it and whoever was organizing the thing still had to go editing, hehe.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 29th, 2015, 12:11 AM
I'm a bit disappointed with the USA. I'd hope that at least Satyagraha and The Death of Klinghoffer would be easily recognized as masterpieces. The Crucible and The Consul are no doubt masterpieces in my opinion, but they suffer from less exposure so people maybe won't vote for them for not having seen them.

Hoffmann
April 29th, 2015, 12:17 PM
I'm a bit disappointed with the USA. I'd hope that at least Satyagraha and The Death of Klinghoffer would be easily recognized as masterpieces. The Crucible and The Consul are no doubt masterpieces in my opinion, but they suffer from less exposure so people maybe won't vote for them for not having seen them.

I would guess that these pieces aren't considered absolute masterpieces, first, because they don't receive much exposure and, second, they haven't received much exposure because they aren't absolute masterpieces. I've seen both and, while The Consul has its moments, it's unrelentingly depressing - so, not breathtaking in its dramatic effect. The Crucible also is unrelentingly depressing and I found - and it was over ten years ago when I saw it - that its modern idiom was neither enjoyable nor particularly accessible.

I'm really not trying to go over well worn ground about contemporary opera. Aside from the different musical language, modern opera librettos combine stories that are more of our time (i.e., no kings, queens, madness, gods, goddesses, etc) with edgy dissonant partiturs. Granted that traditional opera (for lack of a better reference) is full of depressing stories, but earlier composers showed great skill in their ability to relieve their audiences mood through sending signals of hope and through sweet melody.

For example, consider The Consul's book. If I remember correctly, and I haven't gone in and reviewed the Wiki synopsis, the opera proceeds with the lead female character trying to fight an oppressive bureaucracy for a passport out of her particular corner of Hell. After lots of dramatic rending of garments, our hero sticks her head in the oven just before she might have learned that her passport was approved. Curtain.

Yikes. Real? Lots closer than Violetta's gradual and sweetly fading from a vile disease. But audiences wanted relief from their own corners of hell, not a constant reminder - a drumbeat of, as an old friend used to say to me: "So, what have you got not to be depressed about?"

Peter Grimes? Maybe some great music, but the story is so downright hair-raising that I didn't last long enough to find the great music.

JohnGerald
April 29th, 2015, 01:55 PM
What Hoffman said!

This dichotomy has been around as long as opera has, and much longer, actually. Read what contemporary critics said of Puccini or Verdi. Musical tastes are so inherently subjective that the only thing that gets me a bit frosty is someone telling me that I "must" like something that I do not because it is a "great" book, "great" music or "great" art. But while I will probably never enjoy contemporary opera, I am virtually the last person on the planet who will try to dictate what others should enjoy.

Clayton
April 29th, 2015, 02:29 PM
'ang on...

no dictators here


Anything I said suggesting people must listen to Paride ed Elena was just a joke (I'm very bad at jokes)

it's just a different thread idea for us to exchange some thoughts about the different operas

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/mocantina.gif

JohnGerald
April 29th, 2015, 02:32 PM
'ang on...

no dictators here


Anything I said suggesting people must listen to Paride ed Elena was just a joke (I'm very bad at jokes)

it's just a different thread idea for us to exchange some thoughts about the different operas

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/mocantina.gif

Spot on, Clayton. It's why I like this site.

And I didn't mean to suggest that you were being dictatorial, although I had to resist the urge to salute.

Clayton
April 29th, 2015, 03:20 PM
Oh good, all good then

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/Ghelyon.gif

and I don't mind being saluted

just be careful not to salute during a cricket match... things tend to get quickly overheated in that enviroment

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/apr/24/west-indies-england-cricket-marlon-samuels-salute-ben-stokes-curtly-ambrose

Ann Lander (sospiro)
April 29th, 2015, 05:22 PM
We're missing Annie's and Nat's inputs.
I'm anticipating that Annie will endorse Simon Boccanegra and I'm hopeful that Nat will give to Written on Skin another asterisk but will certainly endorse Billy Budd, to my dismay, hehe.

(PS to Annie - Any endorsement of Il Trovatore would have to specify that it is for the opera, not for a certain detestable version of it, LOL)

Oh eck I'm late to this. Remind me again in words of one syllable what I have to do? ;)

OK. I get it. I think!

Do I put a star by the one I recommend? Two stars for Il trovatore DVD? ;)

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 30th, 2015, 12:59 AM
Oh eck I'm late to this. Remind me again in words of one syllable what I have to do? ;)

OK. I get it. I think!

Do I put a star by the one I recommend? Two stars for Il trovatore DVD? ;)

The thing is, you copy and paste the latest list, and you put a star by the ones you recommend (Hint: Simon something) if they are there already, or type them in if they aren't. You can also put a minus sign by the ones you don't think are masterpieces.

Hmm... and... erm... I don't think you should put any stars for a certain Il Trovatore DVD since I've bought a whole fridge full of wet fish for the occasion. :fish4:

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 30th, 2015, 01:07 AM
Jesus, why are words like "dictate" and "dictators" being brought up? I merely said I'm *disappointed* that some American operas don't get more recognition, and that I'd *hope* they'd be considered masterpieces. This is due to my well known love for contemporary music, and I'd assume, then, that there isn't anything wrong with that, right? Aren't we saying that here we respect everybody's taste? Well, I do love contemporary opera. That's my taste. When I advocate for it, it doesn't mean I want to dictate my taste to others, but yes, I'm an advocate. People have causes, and they advocate for them, which doesn't mean they want to *impose* them on others. They may *hope* that people join them, but hopefully not by force, LOL. I believe that to keep opera alive advocacy for contemporary opera is important. It's just my belief. But if people don't think some of them are masterpieces, fine. That's exactly why I proposed the endorsement and the challenge systems.

So, I take it that Hoffmann's post does indicate that he does not consider The Consul and The Crucible to be masterpieces, which is fine. We should place a negative sign next to them. It's still unclear to me if JohnGerald wants to go this far and second Hoffmann's challenge of these operas being listed, but he should feel free to do so if that's what he thinks/wants. If these operas collect two of those challenges and fail to collect 5 more endorsements besides mine (unlikely that they will, at this point), then they won't be in the final list of masterpieces, which is perfectly fine. Me, I find them to be masterpieces. But it's not my list; it's a collective list.

------

PS - Magda's visa never gets granted, and wouldn't have been granted if she had survived (the opera makes a point of showing that only the rich woman is granted a visa). She commits suicide to prevent her husband from coming back to try and save her, so that he won't be in jeopardy himself (which fails; he comes back anyway and gets arrested). Yes, very depressing opera, sure. But I don't think that being depressing disqualifies something from being a masterpiece. Or else, Dostoyevsky's books such as The Brothers Karamazov (and pretty much every other book he wrote) would never have been considered to be masterpieces.

Besides, look at operas that were gladly endorsed here as masterpieces, like Il Trovatore. Hm... a baby gets killed. Tossed into a bonfire, no less. Horrible death. A baby! This, by his own mother (is there any worse tragedy?), and in revenge for the woman's mother having been killed too in the same fashion. At the end a brother gets killed by his own brother (and then he's horrified to find out who the man he has just killed was), while the woman they both love poisons herself, and to top it all, she is pretty much called a slut by the man she is sacrificing herself for. Great. That's much less depressing than The Consul, right. :encouragement:

---------

Now, maybe I sounded condescending when I advanced the hypothesis that The Consul and The Crucible do not get more recognition (although in a sense they did; they both won the Pulitzer Prize for Music) because people haven't seen them. I didn't mean it this way. It's just that I'm a bit dismayed that contemporary opera gets so rarely staged - you all saw my rant about the Met next season not having any contemporary works. Again, I'd *hope* that if people had more opportunities to see them, they'd love them more.

But no, I don't think that contemporary operas don't get staged because they are not masterpieces. I think that the reason is economic more than anything. Opera house directors these days are not willing to take risks. They are afraid seats will not be filled. So, they schedule popular warhorses. With the bills coming, it might be wiser to stage Carmen than The Consul.

But the thing is, certain operas have had up to 415 years to acquire popularity, while some contemporary operas have had... a few months or years. So by sheer volume of exposition, they are naturally not as exposed. People then don't know them... so they can't get as popular. It's an uphill battle and it's almost unfair competition against operas that have been around for centuries and people were able to get used to them and to learn to love them (although many of them were fiascoes when first shown).

And think recordings. If an opera is having its true premiere, then necessarily it hasn't been recorded. By comparison, the older operas in some cases have 200 different recordings. So, if you don't live at a viable distance from where the opera is being premiered, you won't have much opportunity to be exposed to it, while you can pick up from Amazon or your local store dozens of different options for the older operas.

See? Lack of exposure doesn't necessarily mean lack of quality. It's just that it is much harder for contemporary opera to achieve the same degree of exposure of those that have been around for centuries, both in stagings and recordings.

And also, regarding melody, many of the operas already endorsed here as masterpieces are not exactly melodious in the 19th century, bel canto fashion. Elektra and Salome for example are rather fragmented. While Wagner has impressive orchestration, he is not known for melodious vocal writing. Still, this doesn't stop people from endorsing these operas as masterpieces. Melody is not all.

Oh, and by the way, take the whole Ring cycle. Pretty much the only main character who survives is the evil dwarf Alberich. Everybody else dies, including all the gods! It's worse than Game of Thrones in terms of killing off all the main characters, LOL. So, Magda's death at the end of The Consul is hardly an operatic novelty.

--------

Now, if I *only* loved contemporary opera and kept bugging everybody about it all the time, then maybe I'd have some inappropriate dictatorial traits... but I'd hope I might qualify as fairly beyond suspicion here on the matter of contemporary vs. older opera, because I *also* love ancient opera, and *also* advocate for it. I'm an omnivore opera fan, and I love everything from Monteverdi to George Benjamin, and do frequently advocate for other periods as well. Just in May I'm making a point of fully covering and attending the US premiere of a Vivaldi opera at the Spoleto USA Festival. With a limited budget this year, I ended up picking that over going to Santa Fe for the premiere of Cold Mountain.

However maybe I advocate *more* for contemporary opera because it is more fragile and *needs* more advocacy.

There's not much need to advocate for people to go get exposed to... Don Giovanni. Preaching to the choir is not always a good use of someone's time.

Ann Lander (sospiro)
April 30th, 2015, 06:22 PM
From the USA:

Porgy and Bess
The Rake's Progress
--------
The Consul
The Medium
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
The Death of Klinghoffer
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare
Dido and Aeneas
Rodelinda
Peter Grimes *
Written on Skin
Alcina
Rinaldo
-------------
Death in Venice
The Tempest
The Minotaur
The Pirates of Penzance
The Fairy Queen
Ariodante
Serse
Hercules
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia
Billy Budd *

From France

Les Troyens *
Dialogues des Carmélites
Pelléas et Mélisande
Les Contes d'Hoffmann *
Carmen *
Les Indes Galantes
Atys
Manon
Guillaume Tell *
Benvenuto Cellini
Faust *
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
L'Enfant et les sortilèges
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Médée (Chapentier's)
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite
Robert Le Diable *

From Russia

Eugene Onegin *
Boris Godunov *
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya *
Prince Igor *
War and Peace
Iolanta
------------
Kovanschina
Betrothal in a Monastery
The Love for Three Oranges *
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
The Demon
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu
Wozzeck *
Paride ed Elena
Orfeo ed Euridice
Don Giovanni *
Così fan Tutte
Le Nozze di Figaro *
Idomeneo *
La Clemenza di Tito
Die Entführung aus dem Serail *
Die Zauberflöte *
----------
Die Fledermaus
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt
Der Rosenkavalier
Salome
Elektra
Die Walküre
Das Rheingold
Gotterdämerung
Lohengrin
Tristan und Isolde
Tannhäuser
Fidelio
Siegfried
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Parsifal
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Der Freischutz
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata
Rigoletto *
Il Trovatore *
Don Carlo *
Otello (Verdi's) *
La Bohème *
Tosca
Norma
I Capuleti e I Montecchi
Lucia di Lammermoor *
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's)
L'Italiana in Algeri
Cavalleria Rusticana
I Paggliaci
L'Orfeo
Madama Butterfly
Falstaff *
Ernani *
Roberto Devereux
Anna Bolena
Maria Stuarda
I Puritani *
L'incoronazione di Poppea
Armida (Rossini's)
------------
Macbeth *
Simon Boccanegra *
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
L'elisir d'amore
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola
Ermione
La Didonne
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
Artaserse (Vinci)
La Verità in cimento
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride
Rusalka
Jenufa *
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

Bluebeard's Castle
Le Grand Macabre
King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Is this right? :suspicion:

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
April 30th, 2015, 07:51 PM
Is this right? :suspicion:

Hm... sorry, but not really. It seems like you deleted the previous markings. So for example if an opera had been already endorsed twice and you wanted to add your own support, then you should have placed an additional asterisk there - it would then have three, so that we keep track of all votes. But don't worry, I can try and restore all the other markings later tonight when I'll have a little more time. Appreciate your input! And I see that you did endorse Simon Boccanegra, hehe! And I gather that you meant all the other Il Trovatore version except a certain one, right? :angel:

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 1st, 2015, 01:31 AM
OK, putting the list back with all votes and including Annie's votes:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess **
The Rake's Progress *
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
The Death of Klinghoffer
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ***
Dido and Aeneas *
Rodelinda *
Peter Grimes ***
Written on Skin *
Alcina *
Rinaldo *
Billy Budd * -
-------------
Death in Venice
The Tempest
The Minotaur
The Pirates of Penzance
The Fairy Queen
Ariodante
Serse
Hercules
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens **
Dialogues des Carmélites *
Pelléas et Mélisande *
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ***
Carmen ****
Les Indes Galantes *
Atys *
Manon **
Guillaume Tell *****
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
Robert Le Diable * -
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
L'Enfant et les sortilèges
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Médée (Chapentier's)
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite

From Russia

Eugene Onegin *****
Boris Godunov ****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya **
Prince Igor **
War and Peace **
Iolanta *
The Love for Three Oranges *
------------
Kovanschina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
The Demon
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck **
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice **
Don Giovanni *****
Così fan Tutte ***
Le Nozze di Figaro ****
Idomeneo **
La Clemenza di Tito ***
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ***
Die Zauberflöte ****
----------
Die Fledermaus
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt **
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome **
Elektra **
Die Walküre ***
Das Rheingold ***
Gotterdämerung ***
Lohengrin ****
Tristan und Isolde **
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio **
Siegfried ***
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal **
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Der Freischutz
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata ****
Rigoletto ***
Il Trovatore **
Don Carlo ***
Otello (Verdi's) *****
La Bohème *
Tosca ***
Norma **
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor **
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) **
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana *
I Paggliaci *
L'Orfeo *
Madama Butterfly *
Falstaff *
Ernani **
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani ****
L'incoronazione di Poppea **
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth *
Simon Boccanegra *
------------
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
L'elisir d'amore
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola
Ermione
La Didonne
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
Artaserse (Vinci)
La Verità in cimento
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride *
Rusalka **
Jenufa **
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
---------
Bluebeard's Castle
Le Grand Macabre
L'Amour de Loin
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Hoffmann
May 1st, 2015, 03:03 PM
Jesus, why are words like "dictate" and "dictators" being brought up? I merely said I'm *disappointed* that some American operas don't get more recognition, and that I'd *hope* they'd be considered masterpieces. This is due to my well known love for contemporary music, and I'd assume, then, that there isn't anything wrong with that, right? Aren't we saying that here we respect everybody's taste? Well, I do love contemporary opera. That's my taste. When I advocate for it, it doesn't mean I want to dictate my taste to others, but yes, I'm an advocate. People have causes, and they advocate for them, which doesn't mean they want to *impose* them on others. They may *hope* that people join them, but hopefully not by force, LOL. I believe that to keep opera alive advocacy for contemporary opera is important. It's just my belief. But if people don't think some of them are masterpieces, fine. That's exactly why I proposed the endorsement and the challenge systems.

So, I take it that Hoffmann's post does indicate that he does not consider The Consul and The Crucible to be masterpieces, which is fine. We should place a negative sign next to them. It's still unclear to me if JohnGerald wants to go this far and second Hoffmann's challenge of these operas being listed, but he should feel free to do so if that's what he thinks/wants. If these operas collect two of those challenges and fail to collect 5 more endorsements besides mine (unlikely that they will, at this point), then they won't be in the final list of masterpieces, which is perfectly fine. Me, I find them to be masterpieces. But it's not my list; it's a collective list.

------

PS - Magda's visa never gets granted, and wouldn't have been granted if she had survived (the opera makes a point of showing that only the rich woman is granted a visa). She commits suicide to prevent her husband from coming back to try and save her, so that he won't be in jeopardy himself (which fails; he comes back anyway and gets arrested). Yes, very depressing opera, sure. But I don't think that being depressing disqualifies something from being a masterpiece. Or else, Dostoyevsky's books such as The Brothers Karamazov (and pretty much every other book he wrote) would never have been considered to be masterpieces.

Besides, look at operas that were gladly endorsed here as masterpieces, like Il Trovatore. Hm... a baby gets killed. Tossed into a bonfire, no less. Horrible death. A baby! This, by his own mother (is there any worse tragedy?), and in revenge for the woman's mother having been killed too in the same fashion. At the end a brother gets killed by his own brother (and then he's horrified to find out who the man he has just killed was), while the woman they both love poisons herself, and to top it all, she is pretty much called a slut by the man she is sacrificing herself for. Great. That's much less depressing than The Consul, right. :encouragement:

---------

Now, maybe I sounded condescending when I advanced the hypothesis that The Consul and The Crucible do not get more recognition (although in a sense they did; they both won the Pulitzer Prize for Music) because people haven't seen them. I didn't mean it this way. It's just that I'm a bit dismayed that contemporary opera gets so rarely staged - you all saw my rant about the Met next season not having any contemporary works. Again, I'd *hope* that if people had more opportunities to see them, they'd love them more.

But no, I don't think that contemporary operas don't get staged because they are not masterpieces. I think that the reason is economic more than anything. Opera house directors these days are not willing to take risks. They are afraid seats will not be filled. So, they schedule popular warhorses. With the bills coming, it might be wiser to stage Carmen than The Consul.

But the thing is, certain operas have had up to 415 years to acquire popularity, while some contemporary operas have had... a few months or years. So by sheer volume of exposition, they are naturally not as exposed. People then don't know them... so they can't get as popular. It's an uphill battle and it's almost unfair competition against operas that have been around for centuries and people were able to get used to them and to learn to love them (although many of them were fiascoes when first shown).

And think recordings. If an opera is having its true premiere, then necessarily it hasn't been recorded. By comparison, the older operas in some cases have 200 different recordings. So, if you don't live at a viable distance from where the opera is being premiered, you won't have much opportunity to be exposed to it, while you can pick up from Amazon or your local store dozens of different options for the older operas.

See? Lack of exposure doesn't necessarily mean lack of quality. It's just that it is much harder for contemporary opera to achieve the same degree of exposure of those that have been around for centuries, both in stagings and recordings.

And also, regarding melody, many of the operas already endorsed here as masterpieces are not exactly melodious in the 19th century, bel canto fashion. Elektra and Salome for example are rather fragmented. While Wagner has impressive orchestration, he is not known for melodious vocal writing. Still, this doesn't stop people from endorsing these operas as masterpieces. Melody is not all.

Oh, and by the way, take the whole Ring cycle. Pretty much the only main character who survives is the evil dwarf Alberich. Everybody else dies, including all the gods! It's worse than Game of Thrones in terms of killing off all the main characters, LOL. So, Magda's death at the end of The Consul is hardly an operatic novelty.

--------

Now, if I *only* loved contemporary opera and kept bugging everybody about it all the time, then maybe I'd have some inappropriate dictatorial traits... but I'd hope I might qualify as fairly beyond suspicion here on the matter of contemporary vs. older opera, because I *also* love ancient opera, and *also* advocate for it. I'm an omnivore opera fan, and I love everything from Monteverdi to George Benjamin, and do frequently advocate for other periods as well. Just in May I'm making a point of fully covering and attending the US premiere of a Vivaldi opera at the Spoleto USA Festival. With a limited budget this year, I ended up picking that over going to Santa Fe for the premiere of Cold Mountain.

However maybe I advocate *more* for contemporary opera because it is more fragile and *needs* more advocacy.

There's not much need to advocate for people to go get exposed to... Don Giovanni. Preaching to the choir is not always a good use of someone's time.


I have to say, Luiz, that I think your enthusiasm for contemporary opera is just one of your charms. Your points always have merit and are equally worth a vigorous debate!

I also would add that opera companies increasingly seem to think their future success might be tied to contemporary and commissioned works. While it's true that the Met has let you down with their schedule for 2015 - 16 (and, I agree that 5 Puccini operas is way over the top), other companies have loaded their schedules with contemporary works. See: Washington National Opera (2 modern/contemporary works, 1 warhorse and the Ring) and Dallas Opera (2 contemporary works, 2 warhorses and a musical, jeez).

The Berliner Staatsoper is even getting into the ethos. I sat and went through their recently announced schedule trying to figure out next year's (spring, 2016) opera outing and came up empty handed.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 1st, 2015, 08:28 PM
It's interesting to see that from Austria, all the ones I had initially proposed made it as masterpieces, except the two operettas. People don't seem to have much love for operettas. I wouldn't say that as a genre operetta can fully compete with opera (and I far prefer the latter), but the best operettas in my opinion are indeed - within the parameters of their genre - masterpieces.

JohnGerald
May 1st, 2015, 11:06 PM
It's interesting to see that from Austria, all the ones I had initially proposed made it as masterpieces, except the two operettas. People don't seem to have much love for operettas. I wouldn't say that as a genre operetta can fully compete with opera (and I far prefer the latter), but the best operettas in my opinion are indeed - within the parameters of their genre - masterpieces.

Being a fan of good operettas. I concur ... sort of. While I really dig all the schmaltz, even the best performed operettas cannot compete with well performed operas (composed in Italy during the first 75 years of the 19th century ... :biggrin:)

Soave_Fanciulla
May 2nd, 2015, 02:59 AM
From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ***
The Rake's Progress **
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
Akhnaten
The Death of Klinghoffer Good but not a masterpiece, libretto is a bit awkward, and really an oratorio
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes ****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo **
Billy Budd **
-------------
Death in Venice*
The Tempest
The Minotaur*
The Pirates of Penzance
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens ***
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
Carmen *****
Les Indes Galantes **
Atys *
Manon ***
Guillaume Tell ******
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
Robert Le Diable * - I challenge this too, even though I'm a sucker for zombie nuns.
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Médée (Chapentier's)*
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite I challenge this, the music is fine but the plot is awful

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ******
Boris Godunov *****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
------------
Kovanschina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni ******
Così fan Tutte ****
Le Nozze di Figaro *****
Idomeneo ***
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
Die Zauberflöte *****
----------
Die Fledermaus*
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome ***
Elektra **
Die Walküre ****
Das Rheingold ****
Gotterdämerung ****
Lohengrin *****
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio **
Siegfried ***
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal **
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Der Freischutz*
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata *****
Rigoletto ****
Il Trovatore **
Don Carlo ****
Otello (Verdi's) ******
La Bohème *
Tosca ****
La fanciulla del West Many critics see this as Puccini's best, and I agree.
Norma **
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor **
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ***
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana *
I Paggliaci *
L'Orfeo **
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
Madama Butterfly *
Falstaff *
Ernani **
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani ****
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth **
Simon Boccanegra **
------------
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
L'elisir d'amore*
Mosè in Egito
La Cenerentola*
Ermione
La Didone*
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ***
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
---------
Bluebeard's Castle*
Le Grand Macabre
L'Amour de Loin*
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 2nd, 2015, 06:22 AM
Nice, thanks, Nat.
My beloved American operas are persistently not making the final list, so I'll have to mourn their fate.
On the other hand, Nat did prop up some operas I love and nobody had seconded such as Bluebeard's Castle, Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, and L'Amour de Loin. With The Minotaur, it's nice to seem some contemporary operas making it. Also it is nice to see La Didone, a truly excellent opera, getting recognition. Nat's objection to The Death of Klinghoffer being more like an oratorio, well, the initial post of this thread did say that oratorios were fine to belong here, but anyway, she sees another objections too regarding the libretto and specifically says it's not a masterpiece so the opera collects a challenge with a minus sign. La Verità in Cimento gets to the list, and I don't know this one, so I need to patch this gap. Der Freischutz is very deserving of masterpiece status, I was surprised that it hadn't made it yet. Also, L'Enfant et les Sortilèges, and Médée, are both clearly masterpiece material in my opinion so I'm glad that they've made it. Ariodante is arguably my second favorite Handel so it's nice to see it go up. I also think Hercules is superb. Too bad Nat didn't endorse Theodora. I hope someone else does. The first operetta makes the list, Die Fledermaus (just in time for the Met's upcoming version!).

It's curious that nobody endorsed Khovanshchina while Boris made it easily. I actually think the former is better than the latter although I grant to both the status of masterpieces.

According to the rules, Robert le Diable is a goner. Since it has collected its second challenge and hasn't collected six endorsements, it won't belong to the final list. La Favorite could go permanently if someone else challenges it (it hasn't made the final list yet, in any case).

Clayton
May 2nd, 2015, 06:24 AM
...
La fanciulla del West Many critics see this as Puccini's best, and I agree.
...

I still have not managed to listen to this opera. I need to rectify this. Maybe next time I visit the twentieth century.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 2nd, 2015, 06:31 AM
Updated list with confirmed masterpieces (so far) above the dotted lines; nominated but not confirmed below the lines:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ***
The Rake's Progress **
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
Akhnaten
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes ****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo **
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens ***
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
Carmen *****
Les Indes Galantes **
Atys *
Manon ***
Guillaume Tell ******
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)*
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ******
Boris Godunov *****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
------------
Khovanshchina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni ******
Così fan Tutte ****
Le Nozze di Figaro *****
Idomeneo ***
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
Die Zauberflöte *****
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome ***
Elektra **
Die Walküre ****
Das Rheingold ****
Gotterdämerung ****
Lohengrin *****
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio **
Siegfried ***
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal **
Der Freischutz*
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata *****
Rigoletto ****
Il Trovatore **
Don Carlo ****
Otello (Verdi's) ******
La Bohème *
Tosca ****
Norma **
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor **
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ***
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana *
I Paggliaci *
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly *
Falstaff *
Ernani **
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani ****
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth **
Simon Boccanegra **
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola*
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
Mosè in Egito
Ermione
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ***
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin*
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 2nd, 2015, 06:41 AM
Only four operas so far have collected 7 endorsements - the initial nomination plus six endorsements:

Otello (Verdi's)
Don Giovanni
Guillaume Tell
Eugene Onegin

-------

The absent composer among these really widely recognized ones, is one Richard Wagner. His operas, while most of them have made the list, haven't gathered as many endorsements.

It's also curious to see that Wozzeck has collected more endorsements than Lulu. Both are great, but Lulu being so better known, it's weird.

Three I'll be sad if they don't make it:

Satyagraha
Ermione
Die Frau Ohne Schatten

I consider all three to be astounding masterpieces of the highest possible level.

Clayton
May 2nd, 2015, 08:18 AM
...According to the rules, Robert le Diable is a goner...


http://www.pic4ever.com/images/3.gif

bye bye Bob

Soave_Fanciulla
May 2nd, 2015, 08:54 AM
Forgot to add one more:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ***
The Rake's Progress **
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
Satyagraha
Akhnaten
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes ****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo **
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Turn of the Screw
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens ***
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
Carmen *****
Les Indes Galantes **
Atys *
Manon ***
Guillaume Tell ******
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)*
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ******
Boris Godunov *****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
------------
Khovanshchina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni ******
Così fan Tutte ****
Le Nozze di Figaro *****
Idomeneo ***
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
Die Zauberflöte *****
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome ***
Elektra **
Die Walküre ****
Das Rheingold ****
Gotterdämerung ****
Lohengrin *****
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio **
Siegfried ***
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal **
Der Freischutz*
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata *****
Rigoletto ****
Il Trovatore **
Don Carlo ****
Otello (Verdi's) ******
La Bohème *
Tosca ****
Norma **
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor **
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ***
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana *
I Paggliaci *
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly *
Falstaff *
Ernani **
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani ****
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth **
Simon Boccanegra **
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola*
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
Ermione *
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
Mosè in Egito
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ***
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin*
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

Clayton
May 2nd, 2015, 08:59 AM
Forgot to add one more...

I thought Soave_Fanciulla would endorse Artemisia

but maybe it wasn't as good for her as it was for me

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/89.gif

Soave_Fanciulla
May 2nd, 2015, 09:36 AM
I thought Soave_Fanciulla would endorse Artemisia

but maybe it wasn't as good for her as it was for me

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/89.gif

Well, the trouble is I prefer Elena, but I'm not sure either of them is a masterpiece. And I've only listened to it once, so I'm not sure yet.

Clayton
May 2nd, 2015, 10:12 AM
Well, the trouble is I prefer Elena, but I'm not sure either of them is a masterpiece. And I've only listened to it once, so I'm not sure yet.

I hear the Artemisia as one giant Pur ti miro. Almost like Cavalli remembered this blinding number he worked on at school and thought, yes I want an opera with all that romance. He topped it with a number of passages too and the opera is just beautiful melodies one after the other; not necessarily in arias, some in mini some in exchanges but they keep coming.

JohnGerald
May 2nd, 2015, 12:10 PM
Ermione should certainly be on the list.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 2nd, 2015, 12:41 PM
Ermione should certainly be on the list.

OK, so that's an endorsement, which props Ermione up to the "made it" part of the list. I'll just edit Soave's list since it's only one modification, instead of copying and posting the whole thing again.

Italy is increasing its lead with 32 masterpieces. Germany second with 15. The UK has snatched 3rd place with 14.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 2nd, 2015, 01:01 PM
Question - how long should we keep going before locking up a final list? If I'm not mistaken all the regulars have spoken (which is an Opera Lively problem - we have a small number of regulars in spite of having a large number of members who post rarely, and another large number who never post and only lurk, not to forget that we have more than ten times more readers who don't bother starting membership as compared to the number of members).

One problem is that the Top Lists forum was never included in those that deliver new posts to the Home page, so if people who are less familiar with site features don't use the What's New button they won't even see this thread so maybe we don't have more contributions because people are not even seeing the thread.

I'll try to look up again how to include the new posts here on the Home page (I did this years ago when I first did the software set up, and barely remember how to change it).

-------

OK, got it. It was pretty easy, actually. Also went ahead and corrected a big blunder - the Announcements to Members forum now will also reflect on the Home page.

Hoffmann
May 2nd, 2015, 03:00 PM
Only four operas so far have collected 7 endorsements - the initial nomination plus six endorsements:

Otello (Verdi's)
Don Giovanni
Guillaume Tell
Eugene Onegin

-------

The absent composer among these really widely recognized ones, is one Richard Wagner. His operas, while most of them have made the list, haven't gathered as many endorsements.

It's also curious to see that Wozzeck has collected more endorsements than Lulu. Both are great, but Lulu being so better known, it's weird.

Three I'll be sad if they don't make it:

Satyagraha
Ermione
Die Frau Ohne Schatten

I consider all three to be astounding masterpieces of the highest possible level.


I have to admit I don't know either Frau ohne Schatten or Satyagraha at all, so can't endorse either. I don't know Ermione very well - I enjoy it, but don't like it nearly as well as Semiramide or La Donna del Lago , neither of which had much hope of succeeding on the list.

Rossini's opera seria can't seem to find much love anywhere and, if anything, while suffering from weaker librettos than his comedies, are musically far more stunning.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 2nd, 2015, 03:07 PM
Rossini's opera seria can't seem to find much love anywhere and, if anything, while suffering from weaker librettos than his comedies, are musically far more stunning.

Very true. Rossini's best music is in his stunning serious operas, and many of them would qualify as masterpieces for me. I didn't quote too many in my initial list, not to be too heavy in terms of one composer and one genre. By the way, one of his most neglected operas is his Otello which gets smothered by the more famous version by Verdi but is very much worthy of consideration.

Hoffmann
May 2nd, 2015, 03:20 PM
Very true. Rossini's best music is in his stunning serious operas, and many of them would qualify as masterpieces for me. I didn't quote too many in my initial list, not to be too heavy in terms of one composer and one genre. By the way, one of his most neglected operas is his Otello which gets smothered by the more famous version by Verdi but is very much worthy of consideration.

You're right - I forgot about Otello and, while we are on the subject, Elisabetta, Regina D'Inghilterra (despite sharing its overture with Il Barbiere Di Siviglia) is no slouch.

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 2nd, 2015, 03:31 PM
The only two in the list of confirmed masterpieces so far, that I don't know, are The Demon and La verità in cimento. I just purchased both, from Amazon marketplace vendors, used copies, bargain prices.

Soave_Fanciulla
May 2nd, 2015, 10:12 PM
The Demon is AMAZING!

Ann Lander (sospiro)
May 3rd, 2015, 11:17 AM
Hm... sorry, but not really. It seems like you deleted the previous markings. So for example if an opera had been already endorsed twice and you wanted to add your own support, then you should have placed an additional asterisk there - it would then have three, so that we keep track of all votes. But don't worry, I can try and restore all the other markings later tonight when I'll have a little more time. Appreciate your input! And I see that you did endorse Simon Boccanegra, hehe! And I gather that you meant all the other Il Trovatore version except a certain one, right? :angel:

:upset:

Oh sorry to have caused all that extra work. Thanks for correcting my mistake!!

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 10th, 2015, 02:41 PM
I'm hoping that Adrian and Itullian will weigh in. I sent them a PM. Are there other relatively regular members we should PM to see if we finish this list?

Clayton
May 10th, 2015, 03:21 PM
Floria contributes but seems to visit only when her work load allows

maybe there are a few more so perhaps keep the thread open for another week or so

Adrian
May 12th, 2015, 07:04 AM
I'm hoping that Adrian and Itullian will weigh in. I sent them a PM. Are there other relatively regular members we should PM to see if we finish this list?

I've read it Almaviva , call me stupid but staring at the screen for the third time, I don't understand this topic.:confused:

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 12th, 2015, 01:47 PM
I've read it Almaviva , call me stupid but staring at the screen for the third time, I don't understand this topic.:confused:

More than a list of recommended/preferred operas, we are trying to establish a list of those operas that Opera Lively members consider to be true masterpieces. So any opera that someone has nominated as being a masterpiece made the longer list. However for an opera to be confirmed as a masterpiece, we need at least another member to second the nomination. When someone does, we place an asterisk by the title of that opera and move it up to the part of the list that contains the confirmed ones (the list is grouped by countries). If someone sees a nominee that in the person's opinion is not a masterpiece and should not belong to the list, the person then places a minus sign next to it, instead of an asterisk. Operas that have been endorsed by six members can no longer be removed from the list, but if an opera collects two minus signs but doesn't have six endorsements then it is removed from the list.

So, the method for voting is to copy and paste the latest list into another post, and place next to the ones you endorse, an asterisk, and the ones you challenge (the ones you don't agree should be called masterpieces) a minus sign.

Vlad
May 12th, 2015, 04:19 PM
Wait a minute, Turandot is not on the list?! How can that be?!

Also my votes for
Satyagraha*****************
Akhnaten****************

;)

Soave_Fanciulla
May 12th, 2015, 06:59 PM
Wait a minute, Turandot is not on the list?! How can that be?!

Also my votes for
Satyagraha*****************
Akhnaten****************

;)

IMO Turandot's status as a masterpiece is flawed by the fact that it is unfinished. The ending by Alfano is extremely vanilla - (I'm still to hear the Berio one).

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
May 13th, 2015, 12:24 AM
This is the latest list, taking into account Vlad's endorsement of Satyagraha and Akhnaten, his nomination of Turandot, and Soave's objection to Turandot:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ***
The Rake's Progress **
Satyagraha *
Akhnaten *
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes ****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo **
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Turn of the Screw
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens ***
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
Carmen *****
Les Indes Galantes **
Atys *
Manon ***
Guillaume Tell ******
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)*
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ******
Boris Godunov *****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
------------
Khovanshchina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni ******
Così fan Tutte ****
Le Nozze di Figaro *****
Idomeneo ***
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
Die Zauberflöte *****
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome ***
Elektra **
Die Walküre ****
Das Rheingold ****
Gotterdämerung ****
Lohengrin *****
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio **
Siegfried ***
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal **
Der Freischutz*
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata *****
Rigoletto ****
Il Trovatore **
Don Carlo ****
Otello (Verdi's) ******
La Bohème *
Tosca ****
Norma **
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor **
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ***
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana *
I Paggliaci *
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly *
Falstaff *
Ernani **
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani ****
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth **
Simon Boccanegra **
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola*
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
Ermione *
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi
Mosè in Egito
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)
Turandot -

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ***
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin*
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

--------

So far we have 105 confirmed masterpieces.

Floria
May 13th, 2015, 02:43 AM
Floria contributes but seems to visit only when her work load allows

maybe there are a few more so perhaps keep the thread open for another week or so

Thank you Clayton

Work has been a zoo. A new release of software is due out shortly so it has been the usual last minute push from the marketing people with 'we have to have this, that, and whatever'. Coders can get it done but it is the testing and retesting that takes time and that is what I do. :puter: I finished today.

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ***
The Rake's Progress **
Satyagraha *
Akhnaten *
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes ****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo **
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Turn of the Screw
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens ****
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
Carmen ******
Les Indes Galantes **
Atys *
Manon ****
Guillaume Tell *******
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)*
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin *******
Boris Godunov *****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
------------
Khovanshchina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni *******
Così fan Tutte *****
Le Nozze di Figaro *****
Idomeneo ***
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
Die Zauberflöte ******
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome ****
Elektra **
Die Walküre *****
Das Rheingold *****
Gotterdämerung *****
Lohengrin ******
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio **
Siegfried ****
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal ***
Der Freischutz*
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata ******
Rigoletto *****
Il Trovatore ***
Don Carlo *****
Otello (Verdi's) *******
La Bohème **
Tosca *****
Norma ***
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor ***
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ****
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana **
I Paggliaci **
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly **
Falstaff *
Ernani ***
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani *****
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth ***
Simon Boccanegra **
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola*
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
Ermione *
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi*
Mosè in Egito
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)
Turandot -*

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ****
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin*
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedr

Clayton
May 13th, 2015, 08:37 AM
So if any one else would like to contribute their opinion to what they think is a masterpiece (or what is not)

Copy the above list and add an asterisk (*) to the opera you like

or add a minus sign (-) to those that you do not think is a masterpiece

or add an opera to the list if you think it is missing something

All opinions welcome and encouraged; if you are not a member, you can sign up just to join in this fun discussion :)

Clayton
May 14th, 2015, 05:18 PM
From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ***
The Rake's Progress **
Satyagraha *
Akhnaten *
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes ****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo **
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Turn of the Screw
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens ****
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
Carmen ******
Les Indes Galantes **
Atys *
Manon ****
Guillaume Tell *******
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)*
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin *******
Boris Godunov *****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
------------
Khovanshchina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni *******
Così fan Tutte *****
Le Nozze di Figaro *****
Idomeneo ***
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
Die Zauberflöte ******
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome ****
Elektra **
Die Walküre *****
Das Rheingold *****
Gotterdämerung *****
Lohengrin ******
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio **
Siegfried ****
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal ***
Der Freischutz*
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata ******
Rigoletto *****
Il Trovatore ***
Don Carlo *****
Otello (Verdi's) *******
La Bohème **
Tosca *****
Norma ***
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor ***
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ****
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana **
I Paggliaci **
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly **
Falstaff *
Ernani ***
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani *****
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth ***
Simon Boccanegra **
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola*
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
Ermione *
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi*
Mosè in Egito
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)
Turandot -*

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ****
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin**
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedr

MAuer
May 15th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Since no one has objected to its presence on this list and others have endorsed it, I'm going to give Fidelio a little more love.


From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ***
The Rake's Progress **
Satyagraha *
Akhnaten *
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes ****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo **
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Turn of the Screw
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens ****
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
Carmen ******
Les Indes Galantes **
Atys *
Manon ****
Guillaume Tell *******
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)*
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Pheaton
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin *******
Boris Godunov *****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
------------
Khovanshchina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni *******
Così fan Tutte *****
Le Nozze di Figaro *****
Idomeneo ***
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
Die Zauberflöte ******
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome ****
Elektra **
Die Walküre *****
Das Rheingold *****
Gotterdämerung *****
Lohengrin ******
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio ***
Siegfried ****
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal ***
Der Freischutz*
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata ******
Rigoletto *****
Il Trovatore ***
Don Carlo *****
Otello (Verdi's) *******
La Bohème **
Tosca *****
Norma ***
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor ***
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ****
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana **
I Paggliaci **
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly **
Falstaff *
Ernani ***
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani *****
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth ***
Simon Boccanegra **
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola*
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
Ermione *
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
Il Tabarro
Gianni Schichi*
Mosè in Egito
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)
Turandot -*

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ****
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin**
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedr

Clayton
May 26th, 2015, 10:29 AM
There was one missing from the list

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ***
The Rake's Progress **
Satyagraha *
Akhnaten *
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare ****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes ****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo **
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Turn of the Screw
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens ****
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann ****
Carmen ******
Les Indes Galantes **
Atys *
Manon ****
Guillaume Tell *******
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)*
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Phaéton
Amadis
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin *******
Boris Godunov *****
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
------------
Khovanshchina
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni *******
Così fan Tutte *****
Le Nozze di Figaro *****
Idomeneo ***
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail ****
Die Zauberflöte ******
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ***
Salome ****
Elektra **
Die Walküre *****
Das Rheingold *****
Gotterdämerung *****
Lohengrin ******
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio ***
Siegfried ****
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal ***
Der Freischutz*
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata ******
Rigoletto *****
Il Trovatore ***
Don Carlo *****
Otello (Verdi's) *******
La Bohème **
Tosca *****
Norma ***
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor ***
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) ****
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana **
I Paggliaci **
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly **
Falstaff *
Ernani ***
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani *****
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth ***
Simon Boccanegra **
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola*
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
Ermione *
Gianni Schichi*
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria
Il Tabarro
Mosè in Egito
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)
Turandot -*

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ****
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin**
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedr

mario
June 14th, 2015, 10:02 AM
This is my contribution, I added * when I endorse something, I added only one opera "Orlando Furioso di Vivaldi" which is, in my opinion, an opera who can matches with the best Handel's. I have endorsed 32 operas + Vivaldi

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ****
The Rake's Progress **
Satyagraha *
Akhnaten *
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare *****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes *****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo ***
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Turn of the Screw
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens *****
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann *****
Carmen *******
Les Indes Galantes ***
Atys *
Manon ****
Guillaume Tell ********
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)**
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Phaéton
Amadis
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ********
Boris Godunov ******
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
------------
Khovanshchina *
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni ********
Così fan Tutte *****
Le Nozze di Figaro ******
Idomeneo ****
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail *****
Die Zauberflöte *******
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ****
Salome ****
Elektra **
Die Walküre ******
Das Rheingold *****
Gotterdämerung *****
Lohengrin ******
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio ***
Siegfried ****
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal ***
Der Freischutz**
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata *******
Rigoletto ******
Il Trovatore ***
Don Carlo *****
Otello (Verdi's) *******
La Bohème ***
Tosca *****
Norma ****
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor ***
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *****
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana **
I Paggliaci **
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly **
Falstaff **
Ernani ***
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani ******
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth ***
Simon Boccanegra ***
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola**
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
Ermione *
Gianni Schichi*
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria *
Il Tabarro
Mosè in Egito
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)
Turandot -**
Orlando Furioso (Vivaldi)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ****
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin**
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedr

Luiz Gazzola (Almaviva)
June 14th, 2015, 04:52 PM
A few adjustments are needed, moving to masterpiece status a couple that have been endorsed by Mario:

From the USA:

Porgy and Bess ****
The Rake's Progress **
Satyagraha *
Akhnaten *
--------
Amahl and the Night Visitors
The Crucible
The Ghosts of Versailles
Emmeline
Little Women
Doctor Atomic -
The Consul -
The Medium -
The Death of Klinghoffer -

From the United Kingdom:

Giulio Cesare *****
Dido and Aeneas **
Rodelinda **
Peter Grimes *****
Written on Skin **
Alcina **
Rinaldo ***
Billy Budd **
Death in Venice*
The Minotaur*
The Fairy Queen*
Ariodante*
Serse*
Hercules*
-------------
The Turn of the Screw
The Tempest
The Pirates of Penzance
Theodora
Orlando
Tolomeo
Deidamia

From France

Les Troyens *****
Dialogues des Carmélites **
Pelléas et Mélisande **
Les Contes d'Hoffmann *****
Carmen *******
Les Indes Galantes ***
Atys *
Manon ****
Guillaume Tell ********
Benvenuto Cellini *
Faust **
L'Enfant et les sortilèges*
Médée (Chapentier's)**
--------------
Les Pêcheurs de Perles
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Le Dernier Jour d'un Condamné
Dardanus
Les Fêtes de l'Hymen et de l'Amour
Phaéton
Amadis
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame
Dinorah
La Favorite -
Robert Le Diable * - -

From Russia

Eugene Onegin ********
Boris Godunov ******
The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevronya ***
Prince Igor ***
War and Peace ***
Iolanta **
The Love for Three Oranges **
Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District*
The Demon*
Khovanshchina *
------------
Betrothal in a Monastery
A Life for the Tsar
The Fiery Angel
The Golden Cockerel
The Tale of the Tsar Saltan

From Austria

Lulu *
Wozzeck ***
Paride ed Elena *
Orfeo ed Euridice ***
Don Giovanni ********
Così fan Tutte *****
Le Nozze di Figaro ******
Idomeneo ****
La Clemenza di Tito ****
Die Entführung aus dem Serail *****
Die Zauberflöte *******
Die Fledermaus*
----------
Die lustige Witwe

From Germany

Die Tote Stadt ***
Der Rosenkavalier ****
Salome ****
Elektra **
Die Walküre ******
Das Rheingold *****
Gotterdämerung *****
Lohengrin ******
Tristan und Isolde ***
Tannhäuser **
Fidelio ***
Siegfried ****
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg ***
Parsifal ***
Der Freischutz**
------------
Die Frau Ohne Schatten
Die Soldaten
Euryanthe
Boulevard Solitude
Orpheus (Telemann)
Siroe (Hasse)
Croesus

From Italy

La Traviata *******
Rigoletto ******
Il Trovatore ***
Don Carlo *****
Otello (Verdi's) *******
La Bohème ***
Tosca *****
Norma ****
I Capuleti e I Montecchi *
Lucia di Lammermoor ***
Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini's) *****
L'Italiana in Algeri *
Cavalleria Rusticana **
I Pagliacci **
L'Orfeo **
Madama Butterfly **
Falstaff **
Ernani ***
Roberto Devereux *
Anna Bolena **
Maria Stuarda *
I Puritani ******
L'incoronazione di Poppea ***
Armida (Rossini's) *
Macbeth ***
Simon Boccanegra ***
L'elisir d'amore*
La Cenerentola**
La Didone*
Artaserse (Vinci)*
La Verità in cimento*
Ermione *
Gianni Schichi*
Il ritorno' d'Ulisse in Patria *
------------
La fanciulla del West
Il Tabarro
Mosè in Egito
Luce mie traditrice
Beatrice di Tenda
La Calisto
Artemisia (Cavalli)
L'Ormindo
Griselda (Scarlatti)
Turandot -**
Orlando Furioso (Vivaldi)

From the Czech Republic

The Bartered Bride **
Rusalka ****
Jenufa ***
-------------
Kat'a Kabanova
From the House of the Dead
The Cunning Little Vixen

Others

King Roger *
L'Amour de Loin**
Bluebeard's Castle*
---------
Le Grand Macabre
Ainadamar
Il Guarany
Maskarade
El Retablo de Maese Pedro

---------------------------------------------

I think this thread has been open long enough. Pretty much all our regulars have voted, or have seen the thread but for some reason chose not to vote.

I'll consider this contest finished, and will report the final results as one of our official lists.